Warning: Long, 24 pages.
Our private Delphi sleuthing group is the best on the Internet and has been since it was founded five years ago in 2017.
Unlike any other sleuths, we have learned who the police previously fingered as the main suspects in the crime, and we have a good idea of what happened during the crime and what the crime scene looked like.
Best of all, much of our information is via solid sources such as search party members, official case documents, and police sources who leak to us.
So far, we have been proven correct about a number of bits of information that we released about the case that only the police could have known. A number of these facts were later released to the media.
Why not join the 275 members who have already signed up? There is a small fee of $20 minimum (you can always give more) to join, which includes lifetime membership. The $20 fee was demanded by our members in order to safeguard the privacy of their conversations, and it has worked very well.
First of all, an aside. This has nothing to do with the case, but I must say that September 15, 2015 was one of the worst days of our, I mean my, life! I thought I had seen the last of the Greybar Hotel in February 1979, but I guess not.
Links to this site banned on LibbyandAbby subreddit due to the moderator following Reddit’s policies. Here is a quote from the moderator, who is actually an acquaintance.
I have to follow Reddit’s TOS, and he is banned from Reddit – something I did not initiate, I believe it happened before this sub even existed – and that’s the reason I’m not allowing links to his blog. His blog is an extension of him so I have to follow Reddits ruling on it.
Yes, I was permabanned from Reddit, but I’m permabanned from just about everywhere on the Net I comment on (especially liberal and Left sites), and I was getting permabanned from most of the Delphi subs I was posting on before the site ban anyway. I collect bans like trophies and consider them badges of honor. ATrueLady is mistaken. She does not have to follow Reddit’s policy on this, and Reddit doesn’t even have such a policy anyway. If a person is banned from Reddit for this, that, or whatever, that does not entail a consequential ban on linking to that person.
ATrueLady is banning links to my site because she is choosing to do that, not because Reddit is forcing her to. Needless to say, I disagree with the bans on linking here. For God’s sake, are we really that bad?
Any good info he has comes from the M——— search warrant and possibly the RL search warrant. That’s how he knew that the video was 43 seconds long, and began at 2:13. I don’t believe any of his other “sources,” supposedly with tenuous connections to LE.
No, it came from a warrant from a completely different person, but I cannot reveal their name. Also we came out with our information long before the RL warrant was released to the public, and we have never seen the LM search warrant.
Our LE sources were actual working LE officers or officials in the judicial system. In three cases, including our most important and long-lived source, they were detectives.
Interesting that RL blogged about knowing so much, but he changed the letter from K on stomach to R on tree and never mentioned the bullet and girls were 2/3 inches apart. Change from Abby sitting against a tree hands folded to now the were side by side.
We never talked about a K carved in a girl’s stomach. We talked about a K carved in a tree. We never mentioned an R on a tree. We did mention the bullet found at the scene a year before it came out just recently. Another coup for us.
We never knew that the girls were 2/3 of an inch apart. We don’t know everything.
The first description of Abby was from a search party member. It may be specious. The side by side description is from our crime scene photos and lines up perfectly with search party lady descriptions of the crime scene.
Yes, Robert Lindsey is responsible for a lot of the disgusting rumors about the case and some people have put out edited images of the helicopter footage claiming it’s the crime scene and you can see the girls…it’s not, and it’s all been debunked.
Our crime scene photos have not been debunked. Several things in those photos line up perfectly with search party lady descriptions of the crime scene. These are odd posings of the girls that would not have been coincidental to both descriptions. As both pieces of evidence gathered independently line up, we feel that our helicopter footage is valid.
Beyond Highbrow Sleuthing Group Proven Correct Again about Five Different Facts!
We have previously been proven correct about a number of facts about the case that only the police knew. We reported these facts long before they were released to the public. Recently, a few more cases like this have come to light.
We reported that a gun was used in the crime and that a shell was found at the scene. However, we said that the gun was discharged during the crime, and this was not true. We extrapolated that from information we got from a search warrant we obtained long before the Ron Logan search warrant was revealed.
The search warrant we obtained is neither the Logan nor the Maxwell warrant.
Instead, it is for a man who lives near the crime scene whose was fingered as the suspect. Someone took the warrant from his house and ran off a copy of it and then secreted the warrant back into his house. They then sent us a copy of the search warrant. We cannot reveal the name of the man who got served the warrant because he doesn’t want it getting out that he was served. Also he will know who the man was who took the document and ran it off and we cannot burn him either.
It was from this warrant that we obtained the facts about 43 seconds of video and the abduction occurring at 2:13 PM.
One of our members had access to the warrant from the Maxwell residence. It was from there that we reported the model number of the gun used. We got that one a bit off too. We said it was a Sig Sauer 227 when actually it was a Sig Sauer 226.
So we got three things more or less correct:
- A gun was used in the crime.
- A shell from the gun was found at the scene.
- The model of the gun.
In addition, the Probable Cause affidavit for Richard Allen said that Bridge Guy was seen at 3:55 PM walking towards the CPS building. He was covered with mud and blood and appeared to have been in a fight. We previously reported that the police said they were looking for clothing soaked in blood, seen and unseen. The police said that the suspect’s clothing would be soaked in blood due to the grievous wound to one of the girls which was committed with a large bladed weapon, possibly a sword or a machete. So we got one more thing right:
- The supect’s clothes were covered in blood.
In addition, a true crime fan who appears on CrimeTV and has written a book about the case has revealed that he has crime scene photos of the girls’ underwear in the creek. He also said that the girls had been sexually assaulted. The man got his information from sources in the local police. Most people think he does have actual police sources. Unfortunately, his book fingers Ron Logan, and we know that Ron is innocent, so that’s a major fail on his part.
Previously we reported that both girls were assaulted with foreign objects, specifically sticks and twigs which were inserted into their lower orifices. We obtained this information from two different detectives in Indiana who leaked to us. One said the girls were assaulted with foreign objects and the second said the assault was with sticks and twigs. So we got one more thing right:
- Both girls were sexually assaulted with foreign objects.
I would like to point out that if we were actually getting leaked information that only the police knew, it would follow that what we got would be somewhat garbled. Recall the Telephone Game played at parties for how messages get distorted when passing through multiple sources. It would stand to reason that our facts would be mostly correct but also slightly wrong. I think this actually argues in favor of us getting actual sourced information instead of making things up.
The Consensus of our Group on the Guilt or Innocence of Richard Allen in the Delphi Murders
Previous to the release of the PCA, many of our members were leaning towards Allen being innocent, but after it was released, most members now lean towards believing he is guilty. I and a couple of female members continue to believe he is innocent. Therefore the majority consensus of the group now is that Allen is guilty, with a few disagreeing. Those who believe he is guilty have plenty of arguments at their fingertips all over the Net, so there’s no need for me to discuss that.
Nevertheless, this is my group and my website, and I think he is innocent, so I will make the case below that, whether Allen is guilty of involvement in these murders at all, he is definitely not the man on the bridge. However, perhaps he played some other role, possibly as the Bridge Guy’s accomplice. I doubt that but it can’t be ruled out. Anyway, the state’s case hinges on the notion that Allen is Bridge Guy, so if it can be proved that that cannot be so, I assume their case falls apart.
Richard Allen Cannot Possibly be Bridge Guy, the Man on the Bridge
This is true for several reasons.
Height and weight: The height and weight of BG and Allen are so far off that that alone means that Allen cannot possibly be BG. The state’s case lies in ruins and it hasn’t even left the starting gate!
Height: We originally reported that Allen’s height was 5’4. Posters at Idiot Central (the AbbyandLibby sub on Reddit) trashed us to Hell and back over that, insisting that he is 5’7. So we went back and checked our data.
Allen got a traffic ticket in 2011. His height on the ticket is listed as 5’4. The officer got that information from his driver’s license, so his driver’s license also said he was 5’4. In addition, we found court records from that case that list his height as 5’4. To top it off, we found Allen’s jail listing online, and his height is listed as 5’4 there.
We then found numerous photos of Allen. A particularly notable photo involved Allen being taken to his court appearance by deputies. All of the deputies tower over Allen. The average man in the US is 5’9. I doubt if your average sheriff’s deputy is much smaller than that. From the photo, it is clear that Allen is a diminutive man.
The notion that Allen is 5’7 as some ignoramuses insist must be discarded.
The problem is that Bridge Guy is 5’8-5’9. This height was estimated by an FBI agent on a TV show. I have also seen re-enactments of the abduction using sophisticated instruments. These videos also showed BG’s height as 5’8-5’9. I think we can safely put BG’s height at 5’8 1/2. Also, just looking at the BG video, we can see that he does not appear to be a short man of 5’4. Instead he appears to be a man of average height, which is exactly what the estimate shows.
Weight: Allen’s weight is listed as 180 pounds on his driver’s license, traffic ticket, and court record from the 2011 ticket. I do not know what his present weight is listed as in his jail entry online. However, he does look like a portly fellow, and 180 pounds would be a good guess for his present weight. Since we have no other data, we have to put his weight at 180 pounds in 2017 by default. This gives Allen a BMI of 31.5, which makes him obese.
The problem is that Bridge Guy’s weight is also listed at ~180 lbs., but BG is 4.5 inches taller than Allen. BG’s BMI is 26.5, typical for a middle aged man in the Midwest with a bit of a paunch around the belly. Indeed, a BMI in that range would easily fit the image we see of BG on the video. He certainly does not appear obese.
Clothing: The clothing does not match.
Jeans: People on Reddit say that Allen’s and BG’s jeans match on the basis that they are both wearing blue jeans. However, our team believes that BG is wearing Levi’s 501 jeans (Dad jeans) from the 1980’s. Does Allen have a pair of jeans like that? If he doesn’t, the jeans don’t match.
Hat: Much noise has been made on Reddit about BG’s hat matching one of Allen’s hats. However, Allen’s hat in that photo is not a match for BG’s hat at all.
BG’s hat is a deer hunter’s camouflage hat. Sources told us that Mr. X was LE’s main suspect in this case from soon after the crime until this summer when we lost contact with our best source. We believe that police dropped Mr. X and the assorted other suspects and peripheral individuals in favor of Richard Allen. However, a much better case can be made that Mr. X is a better suspect than Allen.
We get a lot of criticism for supposedly saying that Mr. X committed this crime. We never said that and we don’t believe that is true. We have no idea who committed this crime. How would we know? We’re not God or the cops. We have an opinion of who did it, but what use is that? All we ever did was report that Mr. X was LE’s main suspect for five years. We stand by that judgement.
At any rate, we have a photograph of Mr. X at the 2019 presser. We believe that Mr. X is wearing the exact same make and model of camouflage cap that BG was wearing in the video. If he is, that implies quite a bit of brazenness if he committed the crime or knew he was the top suspect.
Boots: Reddit posters say that Allen is wearing boots, and this matches BG perfectly. But that is not so.
Deer kit: BG has a deer kit around his waist. This is used by deer hunters and typically contains five different knives. Was Allen wearing a deer kit that day? Does he even possess one?
Handcuffs: We believe that BG impersonated a railroad police officer, told the girls they were under arrest for trespassing, and handcuffed them. Does Allen own a pair of handcuffs?
Large bladed object: One of our police sources told us that a large bladed object was used in this crime to inflict a grievous injury on one girl. He said it was either a sword or a machete. Does Allen own either of these objects?
Vehicle: Allen’s vehicle and descriptions of the vehicles at the CPS building do not match. Furthermore, Allen was not even parked at the CPS building! Instead he was parked at another building.
A vehicle was backed in at the CPS building. Previous police statements imply that this is the suspect vehicle. The problem is that there was more than one car parked there that day. There are two descriptions of the backed-in car. One witness described it as a purple PT cruiser. Another described it as a black smart car. Previously, police were looking for the driver of a vehicle parked at the CPS building between 12-5 PM on February 13, 2017. Are they still looking for the vehicle that was parked at that place and time?
We have no idea. Assuming this is still the suspect vehicle, it would appear to rule out Allen, as Allen left the bridge area at 3:30 PM, and the vehicle may have been parked there from 12-5 PM. Further and perhaps most importantly, Allen was not even parked at the CPS building at all. He was instead parked at a State Farm Insurance building a ways away. If police say that the suspect parked backed-in at the CPS building, then this rules Allen out completely.
In addition, Mr. X’s cellphone pinged the CPS building between 12-5 PM. Did he leave it in a car? Perhaps. Mr. X says he was in another town at this time. Why then was his phone at the CPS building? Mr. X told police that he has no explanation for this odd fact.
At any rate, Allen owns a black Ford Focus. Reddit posters insist that this Ford Focus looks exactly like a purple PT cruiser and black smart car. However, both of these types of cars are quite distinctive and neither resembles a Ford Focus at all. Further, purple is an unusual color. I have a hard time believing that a black car was mistaken for a purple color. It’s more possible the other way around.
Timeline: The timeline is wrong.
We now know that BG was seen leaving the area at 3:55 covered with blood and mud, looking like he had been in a fight. Allen stated that he was at the bridge at some time between 1:30 and 3:30 PM. However, that does not mean he was there the whole two hours. He could have been there for any period between those two times. As Allen left the area no later than 3:30, he could not be this man seen 25 minutes later.
Witness descriptions: There are apparently three different witness descriptions. One saw a man dressed all in black. Another saw a man dressed all in blue. This one resembles BG. And a third saw a man dressed in a mixture of black and blue. These descriptions do not add up at all, and none of the witnesses say that Allen was one of these people.
Felony Murder law: In my opinion, the fact that he is being charged with Felony Murder means that Allen cannot have killed those girls.
We had a huge raging debate about this in the group, and we eventually had to ban discussion of it because we could not agree, and there did not appear to any good, solid, factual evidence for either side. However, everything I have heard says that Felony Murder is only charged when the person did not actually kill anyone.
One of our retired LE members, a retired homicide detective, agreed and said if he’s being charged with Felony Murder, then he didn’t kill the girls. He worked on eight Felony Murder cases in his career. Here is his description of Felony Murder:
There are so many idiots out there that don’t understand the concept of Felony Murder. Hoards of them think that because there was a kidnapping that makes it Felony Murder. It doesn’t.
They can’t understand the example that I give:
Two guys rob a bank. On the way out the door, they are confronted by a police officer who is responding to the robbery call. The officer shoots and kills Robber #A, and Robber #B gives up and surrenders. Robber #B is guilty of Felony Murder.Here is an even better example:A jewelry store is robbed. The owner chases the robbers out into the street and fires a shot at them. Instead the bullet hits and kills a lady waiting for a bus. The robbers are arrested a mile away by the police. The robbers are guilty of Felony Murder.
A local Indiana defense attorney has made a number of videos about the case. He agreed with our retired LE member.
I found several more cases of Felony Murder.
In one case, a woman drove the getaway car for a burglary. Three men did the burglary. However, the homeowner was home and he shot and killed all three of the men. The woman was charged with Felony Murder.
In a second theoretical case, a kidnapper kidnapped someone. The person broke free from his car and ran across the road to escape, but they were hit by a car and killed. The kidnapper could be charged with Felony Murder.
In a third theoretical case, someone drove the getaway car for an armed robbery. The robbery went bad and the robber shot and killed a teller. The getaway car driver could be charged with Felony Murder.
On the other side, people keep looking at the wording of the Indiana Felony Murder statute where it says, “Kills another human being…” They interpret this to mean that Felony Murder could be charged in the case where someone literally killed another person. I feel that they are getting wrapped up in a concrete view of the meaning of words.
For instance, I believe that in the cases above, the state of Indiana would say that all of those who could be charged with Felony Murder literally killed the people who died. If someone actually kills someone, why not file Murder 1 (premeditated), 2 (non-premeditated), or 3 (Depraved Heart Murder)? It is said that in a Felony Murder case, the prosecution need not have to prove intent to kill, but neither does Depraved Heart Murder and even more to the point, Voluntary and Involuntary Manslaughter. Why not charge Allen with one of these? It makes no sense.
Note that in the three cases above, not only did the people charged with Felony Murder not kill anyone, they didn’t even try to kill anyone, and in fact, they were going out of their way to not to kill or even seriously harm anyone. But someone died anyway.
Here is a theoretical example of how Allen could be legitimately charged with Felony Murder:
Let us say that Allen catfished the girls and lured them to the park with the anthony_shots profile for a different purpose than murder. Let’s say the purpose was to commit some other felony involving the girls, perhaps to meet them for sex. And then let us suppose that BG got wind that Allen was going to meet one of the girls there, and decided to override the plot changing it from “having sex with a girl” into “murdering a girl.”
In that case, Allen could be charged with Felony Murder because he was there to meet them for sex, which is a felony, and they would not have been there unless he lured them there.
He could be charged thus even if he had no desire to kill those girls and did not try to kill or even seriously harm them. He committed a felony involving them, and in the course of that felony, the girls incidentally got killed. Charging Allen with Felony Murder, which literally means he didn’t kill the girls and didn’t even attempt to harm them, and then at the same time saying that he killed the girls makes no sense at all. I have no idea what the prosecution is doing here. Their thinking seems upside down.
Some people take a contrary view to my theory of what Felony Murder means. These people keep saying that Felony Murder can be charged where someone actually kills someone. Well, fine, then dig up a case for me. And no one can do that.
On the other hand, this of what exactly Felony Murder means remains unanswered, and my view of what Felony Murder means is an opinion.
How Our Beyond Highbrow Private Group Works
Since we could not agree on what Felony Murder meant, we were just butting heads and arguing with walls based on our uninformed opinions. Where we disagree on something and the science or facts are not clear about it and people are just butting heads dogmatically and repetitively, we often ban the discussion of that subject. This is why we banned discussion of this subject in our group.
Contrary to popular slander, our group operates on scientific principles.
First is the principle of peer review.
Discussion in our group is done under a peer review framework.
I publish in peer reviewed academic journals on Linguistics, which the subject of my Master’s Degree (my most recent publication is here if you are interested in this rather specialized field), so I am familiar with the process. Unfortunately, it can be quite brutal.
In our group, we also say to criticize the theory, not the person. As such, discussion in the group is quite polite and mild-mannered by the standards of the Reddit and Facebook pages and the podcasters. I’d say our group is one of the only places on the Net where you can discuss this case dispassionately.
The other principle we use is Occam’s Razor.
Occam’s states that when different theories are competing to explain the facts of some matter, the theory that explains the facts mostly simply wins over the more complex and particularly convoluted theories. However, sometimes a more complex theory wins out, and in that case, Occam’s is violated, so Occam’s is not absolute. Instead it is merely a guide. However, I doubt if convoluted theories win out much of the time.
In addition, in my field of linguistics (I publish in peer reviewed academic books and journals), sadly, we seem to violate Occam’s all the time. The current consensus on a variety of subjects posits all sorts of theories that make no sense at all. But they win out over competing and much better theories because the better ones have not yet been “proven.”
But the “alternate facts” in their ludicrous and impossible theories are “not proven” either. But their alternate theories don’t have to be proven. Only ours do. It makes no sense at all! On the other hand, I work in the social sciences. This branch of “science” is a dismal empirical vacuum tube, a notorious black hole of theory, a brain swamp where logical thought goes to die, a land where physics envy rules the roost.
The best theory doesn’t have to be “proven.” It simply has to be better than the competing theories. In that case, by Occam’s, we default to the best theory at this time. Now this theory may be quite wrong. But it is “true for now” until we can find a better explanation of the facts.
The magic bullet: I read the PCA and I was amazed at what a weak case the prosecution made for Richard Allen killing those girls. The state’s case seems to rest on a single bullet found in the woods between the girls’ bodies. This bullet has supposedly been traced to Richard Allen’s gun. However, there are serious problems with this evidence.
First of all, how long had that bullet been sitting there? A day? A week? A month? Longer? Is there a way to tell? Did the police date the bullet?
Second of all, the bullet was ejected, not fired. This makes absolutely no sense at all and makes me suspect a setup or a frame, not on the part of the police but perhaps on the part of the killer. The Mr. X theory that the police were working from had him in effect setting up at least four other males to take the fall for the crime. What’s one more? Why not set up Allen too? And throw in Kegan Kline for good measure?
A bullet is ejected when you are unloading your gun and emptying the bullets out. Why on Earth would the killer have emptied out one of his bullets at the crime scene? So they could make sure to trace the gun to him? That makes no sense. There’s absolutely no reason whatsoever for a murderer to eject a bullet out of his gun at a murder scene unless he’s dying to get caught.
Next, the match was made not through ballistics testing but via tool mark analysis. Ballistics testing is extremely dubious science and tool mark analysis must be worse. That is because the ejector makes virtually no marks or only tiny marks when it ejects a bullet from a gun. Firing a gun through a gun barrel causes vastly more damage or changes to the bullet.
Ballistics testing is highly flawed. New studies have come out that call the very science of ballistics testing into question. When the same bullets and guns are returned to testers without them knowing they already tested them, the testers only agree with themselves 2/3 of the time! So the testers can’t even agree with their own selves on which gun a bullet came from. When the same bullets and guns given to one tester are sent out to another tester, the two agree only 1/3 of the time. Talk about getting a second opinion!
Testers point to studies showing only a
To make it worse these terrible results were obtained via standard ballistics testing of fired bullets in which quite a bit of damage or changes were made to the bullet as it went through the barrel. In contrast, ejecting a bullet causes almost no damage or changes in the bullet. The changes in a fired bullet must be 10X greater than in an ejected bullet. If ballistics testing is as bad as I described above, then tool mark analysis must be 10X worse.
In short, the magic bullet is garbage evidence. Maybe it’s from his gun, maybe it isn’t. Nobody knows and the cops sure haven’t proven it.
Failure to destroy evidence: This is a big one. If Allen killed those girls, why on Earth did he keep his car, clothing, and God forbid his gun? Surely a killer would have ditched the gun somewhere. And he probably would have disposed of the clothing too. The car, I’m not so sure, but killers often sell the car that they use to commit crimes. Sometimes they even set it on fire.
Well, fine, maybe Allen is a sloppy and stupid criminal. Perhaps that is so. However, this crime was conceived and executed by a criminal mastermind, an evil genius.
First the numbers games. BG abducted the girls at exactly 2:13 PM to match the 2/13 crime date, not to mention 2 girls, both around age 13. The abduction time does not seem to be a coincidence, otherwise why is the FBI mentioning it? In addition, an early police profile of the killer said, “He may be interested in numbers.” This implies that the abduction time was precisely planned.
He then abducted two teenage girls in broad daylight in a public park with other people around, somehow got them both across a creek to the other side and murdered them, all without anybody seeing them or hearing a sound. The killer brought along a bottle of toilet bowl cleaner. It can be easily seen in BG’s left pocket in the video. According to our police sources, the killer used the toilet bowl cleaner to destroy all of his DNA at the crime scene. Well, that’s awfully sharp, I must say.
Now how can we reconcile this criminal mastermind with the other portrayal that seems to make him one of the stupidest and sloppiest murderers around? We can’t.
At the very least, I am absolutely certain that Richard Allen is not BG. The cops say he’s BG? Well, that means either the cops are lying, framing the guy, or mistaken. Take your pick. Anyway, they’re flat out wrong. Not only is he not BG but he cannot possibly be BG no matter how you twist circumstances around. The state’s case is dead right there.
Sure, it’s possible that Allen was also part of this crime, but he was not BG, as BG was someone else. Perhaps Allen was there too and was an accomplice. Perhaps Allen was there but played a minor or peripheral or possibly even noncriminal role in the crime. But based on the evidence presented so far, the state has absolutely failed to make the case that Allen was involved in this crime in any way, either as an accomplice, a minor player, or a peripheral or even noncriminal subject.
Sadly, he is as good as convicted everywhere I look. All of the media and podcasters and the Reddit and Facebook groups are all saying he did it. He hasn’t even gone on trial yet, and he’s already convicted in the court of public opinion.
Here is our retired detective’s view on the case against Richard Allen:
So many of these idiots are convinced that this is sure conviction. It’s not. If they went to trial today, there might even be a directed verdict of acquittal, meaning that the defense wouldn’t even have to put on a defense. The case is that weak.
No one will ever prove that the man walking across the bridge is Allen. The prosecution might bring in some expert who will try to say he is, but the defense will have a better expert who will say it isn’t. The same with the bullet. The defense probably has experts lined up right now to refute the firearm expert from the Indiana State Police who made the determination linking Allen’s gun to the bullet.
That’s it. What jury is going to convict with that? They won’t and and all Hell will break loose.
That’s very interesting. I had never heard of a directed verdict of acquittal before. I know that in some cases where the prosecution brings forward a very weak case against the defendant, the judge simply throws the case out of court and says the prosecution does not even have enough evidence to go try the defendant, much less to convict him. I suppose that is what a directed verdict of acquittal means.
One more thing. If Allen didn’t kill those girls, who did? I have no idea, but I would suggest revisiting Mr. X, the main suspect for five years, dropped along with four other participants, peripheral and more serious, inexplicably in order to go after this poor guy. Keep in mind that we don’t know why the police dropped Mr. X and the four others involved in that theory as we lost our main police source.