Bomb Roberts: I sort of disagree. I think androgyne can be an effective way to present oneself and interact with the world. However, it is a fairly extreme way of being, and anyone choosing it has to really commit and genuinely achieve an almost God-like lack of fucks to give. Most men just can’t do it.
Only world-historical figures like the ones you mention or super-effeminate gay guys.
That’s another thing: you have to be indifferent to what women think of you. That means one of two things. Either you know you have such a high level of supreme awesomeness that you know they’ll be into you anyway or you just don’t swing that way.
It is for this reason that I admire and respect gay guys and drag queens. They know who and what they are, and they don’t give a fuck.
First of all, I would like to welcome Bomb to the site. I have a feeling he might even like it here.
You are referring to the traditional version of an androgyne, right? Meaning a member of one sex who acts fully like the other sex. Nowadays most such folks have gone over to some subspecies of trans.
How about the other examples I gave from the 1970’s of guys who were actually as tough, hard, and ultra-masculine as street gang members (and a number of them like Thunders and Johansen were just that) but who dressed up like chicks or ran a layer of femininity on top of their hypermasculinity?
That’s the androgyny I grew up with in the 1970’s, and it was pretty boss. The first glitter rock club was opened by Rodney Bingenheimer on the Strip around 1969, and if you went there, you would see a bunch of guys who were practically dressed up like chicks. But if you went and talked to them, all of them would identify as straight males. See, back then you could dress like that, and people would not necessarily think you were homosexual.
How do you feel about what I call “pure androgynes” – very masculine men who also run a layer of femininity on top of the macho vibe? I kind of like that, but I’m not even sure that’s viable anymore.
Part of the problem was gays coming out. Before they came out, everyone was assumed to be straight until proven otherwise. I liked it just fine! Then when the gays came out, all of a sudden people realized that gay men existed, and a lot of us straight men who walked free a few years before were now being tagged, questioned, or accused of being homosexuals.
You might say, “Yeah, well, so what, who cares what people think?”
Sure, but let me tell you, it just doesn’t work being a straight man and having lots of people think you’re gay. It’s not like people learn the truth and blow it off and say, “Oh, OK! Sorry I was mistaken!” It’s nothing but trouble and problems that never end! Sure you can move to a new city to escape these troubles, but then they will just start up all over again in the new place. It’s like running away from your fears. You can run but you can’t hide and eventually it catches up with you.
On the other hand, I will say that I have been meeting some younger bisexual girls and women recently who were disappointed that I was not bisexual like them and who said they would be very happy if I were bi too. I assume they would tolerate more androgyny in men than straight women.
One, a 17 year old girl who I did not have sex with, told me to “Get over it,” meaning get over my “hangup” about having sex with guys.
And I’m getting dumped by young women these days for being “homophobic,” though I’m not really a gay-hater. More that I am quite uncomforable (or phobic as in fearful in the traditional sense of the word) with the whole subject of male homosexuality and have a low opinion of myself and my friends doing such things. We think it’s the worst thing on Earth for us and our friends to do. My friends say things like, “If you offered me a choice between having gay sex and getting shot, I would say, ‘Just shoot me.'” That’s a pretty extreme revulsion!
For the gays, it’s another story. They were wired up that way so they have to engage in gay sex. They have no choice. While we don’t like gay sex, we realize that gay men must engage in it and we can’t hate people over things things they can’t control. So we walk a tightrope of hating it in ourselves, our friends, and in general, while being tolerant of it among actual wired-up gay men.
It’s like cats meow, dogs bark, and gay men screw guys. Hating gay men for screwing guys is like hating your dog for barking. Barking is what dogs do. Screwing guys is what gay men do. And neither can help it anymore than the other.
I fully support gay men coming out of course, but even a lot of good things have a downside.
Also, IMHO perhaps in reaction to mass coming out of gay men (?), we have seen straight men doing an extreme doubling down on hypermasculinity to the point where they are almost parodies of such in order to differentiate themselves from increasingly out gay men.
Back in the 1970’s, a guy covered with tattoos was an ultra-macho scumbag, maybe a sailor or Marine at best but at worst a criminal or a biker, which was often the same thing. He was a scumbag! Women with tattoos were just scum too – mostly biker chicks or lesbians. Also, they were routinely tagged as superwhores.
Now what to us were marks of super-whoredom and extremely dangerous ultra-masculine criminals respectively have become de rigeour for both sexes!
I watched porn from the 1970’s and 1980’s. Male porn stars of that era were flexible in gender presentation, and many of them were rather soft pretty boy types. Some like Paul Thomas even had very soft voices. The men were a lot more androgynous because you could act that way back then and still have women swarming on you. I think you can get away with that anymore, sorry.
Check out the porn nowadays. Many if not most of the men are extreme hypermasculine men, so extreme in their masculinity that they almost seem like parodies. And the sex has gotten a lot rougher, meaner, and more hypermasculine. Add to that the recent fad for men to be Doms (traditionally as ultra-masculine as a man can get) or frankly out and out sexual sadists, and you complete the circle. Mass movements of men toward being BD/SM Doms or sexual sadists is not a good thing. No wonder all these women are dying of choking sex gone bad.
Give me back the 1970’s.
If you are referring to the traditional sense of a man out and out acting like a woman, I don’t think that’s doable at all for a straight man anymore except for guys like Prince, and he actually had a macho layer underneath.
Very few straight men are actually effeminate. Studies show that 70% of gay men are effeminate and only 3% of straight men are. I really do not recommend at all that straight men act effeminate.
Hey, a mannerism or two is OK. A lot of straight men have a faggy mannerism or two. One thing you will notice if you get extremely relaxed is that your limbs started sagging and going limp. Before you know it, you hand is bending backwards. But straight out acting like an effeminate homosexual is just not going to work for a straight man. In that direction lies nothing but trouble. Effeminacy is for gay men. If you want to be femmy, just move to Frisco and go gay. If you want to stay straight, for God’s sake at least act like a man, dammit.