Zamfir: Yeah it’s harder to fudge in math, but it does happen there too. Where I am schools get money to enroll more women in engineering, grades be damned.
Yeah, and will they pass at university level? If they can’t cut it and got in on AA, 100% will flunk out.
Zamfir: But anyway there are millions of people in humanities where all kinds of fudging can be done pretty easily.
I went to university with a lot of people who muddled through with C’s. They weren’t stupid. They had IQ’s of ~100, which is average. But average IQ doesn’t cut it at a good university.
Furthermore, I got a Masters in Linguistics, and it was the hardest thing I ever did. I almost didn’t get it and had to fight them for it. And I have a 147 IQ, which is genius level. 1/1,000 people have a score that high. That’s .1% If there are 1,000 people in a building, I am smarter than everyone in that damned building, and even I had a hard time with that Humanities Masters.
They were not giving them out like candy; they made you work like a sleigh dog in the arctic to get it. They kicked your ass until you got the degree. They were not letting you out without a fight, and to say they had high standards is to put it mildly.
I resent this idea you have that MA’s are given out trivially, at least in my field. Bottom line is, in my field, if you didn’t have what it took, no way in Hell you got that degree. Not happening. You will flunk out.
Zamfir: Math grad students from Africa. Sure. But look at grades and IQ for Africans versus the rest of the world or Americans. If there really were lots I would be suspicious. There is a big IQ/grade/achievement gap there. Maybe they skimmed off the top of the African population. But why?
There are going to be lots of better qualified White or Asian applicants out there… Suggests some kind of bias.”
Yes, Africans are remarkably unintelligent but their genetic variability is so high that there are many extraordinarily smart Africans. And I have met some of them. One African I knew from Benin is literally one of the smartest people I have ever met. The Africans with degrees I met here in the US are smart as whips. I met an African Linguistics professor at Berkeley, and I hate to be redundant, but once again I felt like I was meeting the smartest person I had ever met. This man was insanely smart, so smart you wonder if he’s from the same planet as you are.
Yes, we are skimming the cream of the crop in Africa. Of course we are. We don’t let in many Africans, and a lot of the only ones we let in are “the Kenyan with a Masters Degree.” We reject 99% of African immigration requests. The Embassy people are all race realists, and they know what these people are like.
There are indeed quite a few brilliant mathematics students from Africa in our universities. This isn’t the first time I have heard of it. There are not lots of better qualified Asian and White applicants, and anyway his school is open enrollment, so no one gets turned down.
African immigrants have the highest IQ’s of any US immigrant group at 110. You never knew that, did you?
And if those Africans can’t cut it, they will flunk out. In math, you will flunk out real fast at university level if you can’t cut it. They don’t mess around.
27 thoughts on “University Enrollment and Degrees and Affirmative Action”
This is all beside the point. So some women and blacks who got in under AA will flunk. I know that. Regardless every AA person who gets in takes a place that would and should have gone to someone else.
And yes, the person who was shut out can still go to another school. But that’s still a serious loss to that person.
And society loses when we waste time and resources trying to teach people in an elite program who won’t actually finish and contribute as a result.
These are serious problems not to be dismissed by saying AA is unreal, some Africans are smart, etc.
“Regardless every AA person who gets in takes a place that would and should have gone to someone else.”
What difference does it make? Most state universities have open enrollment, so no one is shut out. You make mountains out of molehills.
“And yes, the person who was shut out can still go to another school. But that’s still a serious loss to that person.”
Most schools have open enrollment. Why would they have to go to a new school. AA is 80% reduced now and that’s still not good enough for your resentful self?
“And society loses when we waste time and resources trying to teach people in an elite program who won’t actually finish and contribute as a result.”
If they can’t cut it they won’t last long. These people drop out quickly in the first year or two. It’s not a problem. Let them go to school and drop out. A year or two of university is better than none. Actually they will be better off with 1-2 years of university than with zero.
Also people who can’t cut it will never get admitted to an elite program anyway. They are taking the lowest level courses and they can’t even cut those.
They’re not serious problems. Your AA problem is a bag of feathers on your back and you think it’s full of rocks. The consensus is AA is dead in the US. Most sane people don’t even talk about it anymore because we are presumed to have dealt with it. Of course White nationalists cling onto it with a dog with a bone because they are mired in tribal paranoia and resentment bullshit and they generally not very sane.
Pro-White or White Identitarian types are not sane, like all other IP fools.
Robert has gone insane! He’s an SJW! 😆
As said before, college courses, even at a community college or state university (minus some speech classes etc..) are tough as nails regardless of whether it’s humanities or math and sciences. No matter who is let in, whatever background, they won’t make it if they won’t work and/or are not smart.
Not saying MAs in humanities are given out like candy. Especially not if the student is a cis-white-male. It depends on the field, the school, the professors, etc. But if we’re trading anecdotes, I personally know of many women who were given MAs and PhDs, or hires as professors, when men who were definitely more accomplished and able got rejected. That does happen, systematically, and I have never seen the reverse.
“I personally know of many women who were given MAs and PhDs, or hires as professors, when men who were definitely more accomplished and able got rejected.”
Wait. The man was not given the MA or PhD that he worked his damn butt off for? Forget it. If you do the work, you get the degree, real simple. If you didn’t get the MA or PhD, you could not handle it, real simple.
And if those women were qualified enough to get an MA or a PhD, goody for them. They must be damn smart.
As far as hires as professors, you may be onto something.
Well you don’t have to believe me, I guess. I am saying that these women were not qualified for admission to the PhD let alone defending. No thesis, no ability to defend their views (actually just the views of a supervisor who wrote most of “her” diss for her.) But they were greased through anyway. I have been involved in such decisions and heard the reasoning first hand from committees. But you may not believe me.
What field is this? My field is Linguistics and getting a PhD is like climbing Everest. They really push you to your limits.
You realize there are some PhD programs like Math where they have denied people PhD’s for 21 years? It’s never good enough. One guy flipped and murdered his advisor. My cousin flunked out of PhD program, and she has a 145 IQ.
In my Masters program they seemed to delight in flunking people out at the end. I thought they should just let us take the test forever, maybe pay for it, who knows, like the Bar. Maybe not pay for it. It doesn’t cost them anything to test someone out. They were out and out sadists. They flunked a LOT of people out at the end, and some had gotten mostly A’s all through. It was bullshit. If it seems like you are not going to make it at the end, why pass people along with A’s? They need to weed out those who won’t cut it at the end early. Everyone who graduates med school passes their boards. They make sure you will or you will never get the degree.
How can it be the consensus that AA is dead when Harvard is having a lawsuit over AA and Harvard’s own media calls it an AA issue?
In the eyes of most people, no one ever talks about it anymore. If you ask knowledgeable people, they will tell you it’s over. I corresponded with Taylor, remember? In our correspondence, Taylor agreed with me that AA is done in the US. He still thought it was a problem somehow though, I think maybe because it existed in the first place. It’s been banned in so many courts, I think even the damned US Supreme Court, that most people think it’s over.
The only people who talk about it are White racists, White nationalists, White Supremacists, etc. They never got the memo, plus THEY ENJOY BEING VICTIMS. Which is one more shitty thing about White IP.
What can I say? It is in the courts right now. So unless you think Harvard and a bunch of Asians mad about admissions (for undergrad btw not grad school) are all racists and White supremacists, it can’t be true that only racists and White supremacists still talk about it.
You must be aware that virtually all universities in the western world have made racial and gender diversity a top priority. The administrators and profs talk endlessly about it: how to get more women in science, more minorities enrolled and hired into tenure stream jobs. There is just no way to pursue these goals except by discrimination against men, Whites, etc. Are you saying they all talk publicly about this but don’t ever really do anything to advance their aims?
Why won’t these geek-zoid 4-chan people quite whining and making memes and start working? Then they would get better grades.
Does that sound like a solution???
All in all this is BS whining cause they’re a bunch of lazy “live in mom’s basement” punks who want something for nothing!
Zamfir, Asians are mad about all of this preferences stuff they are putting in regarding schools. But they don’t usually call it AA.
“You must be aware that virtually all universities in the western world have made racial and gender diversity a top priority.”
Corporations have too though.
I suppose this is what is left over from getting rid of AA. Nobody is talking about it though because I guess not too many people care about university professors. The male and White academics are probably just quietly going along with it.
I mean in the minds of most of the public, it’s considered dead and hardly anyone talks about it anymore. I had heard about the Asians.
You ask rhetorically why they’d give As to people who can’t cut it. I can tell you why: they want those people to get credentials and become profs. Then they are hired under a lower standard than would apply for White men.
This is to give the institution SJW cred, get good press, get funding, and also because many academics are true believers and they just want a “diverse” student body and faculty. I have seen this happen first hand. For example, administrators saying “We can’t flunk her for cheating because she is a minority”. Or “Our dept has no women, the hire/admission must be a woman”. No one writes this down and the explicit policies are vague enough for plausible deniability. I assume this is what tye Asians are complaining about at Harvard.
“You ask rhetorically why they’d give As to people who can’t cut it. I can tell you why: they want those people to get credentials and become profs.”
No they gave me some of those A’s. I suppose I deserved them. I’m a White male. Why would they want to pass me along for their diversity goals. Hardly anyone in my field was going into academia. Most were going into ESL teaching. I just think the the test out was way too hard.
I mean they had one standard when they were passing us along and then this much tougher standard at the end when they tested us out. Also the courses did not prepare us for the final test out. If you are flying through the program with A’s you should be able to test out easily. If it seems like you won’t be able to handle the test out, you should be flunking out.
Your argument makes no sense because these people were flunking the test out and no one was going into academia anyway.
“For example, administrators saying “We can’t flunk her for cheating because she is a minority”.”
I’ve heard of this stuff. No need to put diverse in quotes. Obviously they are pursuing diversity here.
I think you’re misunderstanding. I’m not saying that all A grades are given because of diversity ideology. But some are, the kinds you were talking about: the women (for example) who don’t really meet normal standards but are greased through.
I am aware that not every grade or program in the world has been corrupted, that some degrees are real achievements, etc. That’s consistent with my claim that AA (or essentially the same thing under another name) is real i many places, and a big problem.
I’m not talking about your grades or any other White guy’s. That’s not the topic.
First, let’s assume, in the case of English, for instance, that they have good grammar – after that, what is the criteria for making a B and even an A. Is it sucking the professor’s dick regarding political opinions he/she likes?
Well, that’s not really a racial thing. But it seems like the student could take up this thing with the dean over bias in grades.
What will be funny is when whites start wanting affirmative action against Asians. I mean, basically all this white racist stuff is identity politics, anyway, not necessarily supremacist. In that case, they will eventually say it has nothing to do with science or egalitarianism – but only to do with “meh” tribe – the whites.
In the past, didn’t white identity politics also make it tough for Jews to get into college – even when the superior Jewish academics obviously made them qualified?
Per the Jason Richwine data, wherein he looked at IQ of immigrant children ;
Indians = 112 ( dont know caste composition of this sample )
East Asian = 105
European = 99
Black African = 89
Hispanic = 83
African children would have to be higher. As Robert was saying, they’re taking in the best – and also evidence of that at my state university where there were at least 10 or 20 math graduate students.
Immigrant children! How many immigrants come here as kids? Not a lot. My understanding is that those figures are for children of immigrants.
That’s not good. 89 is for the second generation children of Black African immigrants is my understanding.
All Indians in the US are high caste.
Why is Hispanic so low? Hispanic IQ in US is ~90.
Maybe black IQ is falling in this group due to exposure to native born African Americans.
Or regressing to the mean. I don’t have a huge problem with 2nd generation Black African-Americans with an IQ of 89. Better than an IQ of 70.
Negro Lover! 😆
I better expression of 1/1000 is you “beat” and/or best 9 that are typically 1/100. on another note at about mid 140s you can communicate with other 140+ using very few words often no words. And “lay” people recognize ordinary smart people of 115-125 or so but often miss those above that range. they just don’t notice. and as I mentioned two 147s in a room of strangers will notice each other. how did I get here? I was traveling down stalingrad tangents
“on another note at about mid 140s you can communicate with other 140+ using very few words often no words.”
Fascinating. Yes, we don’t need to talk that much. We say something and the other person is nodding halfway through the sentence because they already know what the end of the sentence is!
“And “lay” people recognize ordinary smart people of 115-125 or so but often miss those above that range.”
I don’t about that. Every person in my life who has ever comment on my intelligence has always said that I am smart, often very smart, extremely smart. “You are the smartest person I know,” is heard quite a bit.
If you are talking about people in the average range, it is not so much that they do not recognize that I am intelligent (though that is possible) but more that they simply do not care because people in that range place little value in intelligence. It is meaningless, useless thing for most of them. On the other hand, no one ever says I am average intelligence, and no one ever says that I am dumb. Only people on the internet say that, which goes to show you why the criticism you get on the Net is some of the least reality-based on all.
“and as I mentioned two 147s in a room of strangers will notice each other.”
I think they might but I am not sure.