Turkish Genetics

Matt: I always assumed that the inhabitants of Anatolia were basically just Islamicized Greeks and other descendants of the indigenous inhabitants. But I was reading a history of the Byzantine empire, and apparently the Turks did at one point efficiently ethnically cleanse Anatolia of Greeks and others. This was in medieval times. We aren’t even talking about the post World War I unpleasantness. I always understood that Turks qua Turks were closely related to Mongolians, Siberians, even Native Americans, but yeah, a lot of them look totally European. So where do they think that came from? What does the genome say?

The Turkic Turks, an Asiatic people who brought their language with them from the Altai over 2,000 years, only make up a small % of the Turkish genome. The Turkish genome is only 7% made up of this Asiatic Turkic core. The Asiatic Turks brought language and religion but not much else. Apparently not many people. The natives were simply native Anatolian Christians who were Islamicized religiously and Turkified linguistically by the invading Asiatic Turks. Nevertheless, over 90% of the genome is made up of Anatolians, Greeks, Slavs and other Whites.
If you look at Turkish genes, they line up very well with Ashkenazi Jews, Kurds and Armenians, the three groups of people the Turks hate the most. It’s really one race – Turkic-Armenian-Kurdish-Ashkenazi Jewish. They’re all one people, but they speak different languages and some have different religions so the Turks hate all the rest of them.

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26 thoughts on “Turkish Genetics”

  1. Ashkenazim—from most dna studies, and some historical evidence—(along with Sephardim and old Italian Jews i.e. Italkim) are more (mostly) a cross between Northern Levantine (Lebanese/N.Palestinian/Syrian-like) and South European (strongly N. and Central Italian, but likely including some Greek and West Annatolian)—with Ashkenazim also having very minor Central/E. European. But of course North Levantines and Greeks are not far from Annatolians genetically (rather close—often very close to them) anyway.

    1. And Ashkenazim (and maybe some other Jews) apparently also have a small N. Messopotamian or Western Iranic component—though this could be very small autosomally—(which may be close to some Kurds, N. Syrians and S. Annatolians) as evident by the R1a haplogroups carried by some.

    2. “…North Levantines and Greeks (particularly Southern and Island Greeks) are not far from Annatolians genetically (rather close—often very close to them) anyway.”

    3. The S. European/non-Levantine component in Sephardim is likely a mix of Greek, Iberian (and possible Annatolian), witout the Italian fraction (or much less of it) present in Ashkenazim and Italkim.

  2. Robert, as you know I have been researching about turkish origin and genom for quite a while but I really wonder what makes you write so confidentially about turks-armenians-kurds and jews bonds? How did you come to that conclusion? Did you ever read my previous comments based on my research about my roots, or do you prefer to ignore them just because you prefer to believe your own ideas? Or is this just an american way of reacting facts that you do not want to hear? Your comment surprised and disappointed me a lot.
    What you wrote here is not true. It is not scientific either. I wrote before that our relationship with kurdish-armenians are just like the ones with mongol and chinese long ago, it is just transition of genes to some degree. It doesnt make turkish relatives to these middle-eastern people. This is like claiming ‘turks are one with arabs’; all of them are equally funny. Turkey has a large number of ”J gene” which belongs to arabs and kurds but it also has enormous amount of R1b1 and R1a1 genes which are european genes. It shows something, but not the one you want to believe.
    Ashkenazi jews are turkish, that is a reality, as they are the one who spreaded to eastern and central europe after the fall of turkish Khazaria empire in northern caucasia and russia. They were read-headed, fair people like all ethnic turks like kipchacks. I suggest you search about turkish empires in history, if you want to make fair comments. We don’t hate them at all, to be honest I find them very close to us, and they love us too.
    Regarding your ‘beloved’ Greeks; they are semitic people like Latins (kins of Arab, Kurdish, Persian and some other related nations like asyrians) who lived in warm parts of europe before turks arrived from north. They changed everything, literally everything in europe. So greeks have got nothing to do with turks either, we just happened to have some affairs like having wars and living close to each other like kurdish, arabs and persians.
    I am sorry to frustrate you but we turks do not hate those people, on the other hand we always try to make good connections with all the above mentioned people. But they might be hating us, in that case there isn’t so much we can do. We have an unbelievably great culture and have warrior skills but we don’t hate people while we try to share everything with them. If they can’t take it or don’t like it, we just defend ourselves. That is the only thing we do.
    Also, please do not take into consideration what erdogan’s government to in today’s turkey because he is not normal and he hates everybody including turks.
    Turks didn’t only enter Anatolia, but entered the whole europe from north as well with the ‘migration of tribes’ and brought their shaman and pagan beliefs and customs (like decorating pine trees; it’s a very typical turkish custom originating from submitting presents to turkish god Ülgen). All those tribes were turkic people who shaped today’s europe.
    I hope that we will agree now, or else I will keep on posting more facts that you will not like to hear again. Please know this; I only speak truth based on my research and science. But truth may be far away what you want it to be.

    1. My understanding is that Turks, Armenians and Kurds formed a tightknit race, and that Ashkenazim were part of that group. There was a lot of press about that several years ago. It really doesn’t matter that Turks are made up of all sorts of things. We are looking at whom they most resemble.
      There were also huge numbers of Greeks living in Western Turkey before the Turks murdered most of them.
      Real Turkish invasions did not come to all of Europe. I believe that they came to some parts of Eastern Europe such as Hungary and possibly Bulgaria and Romania long ago. Indeed Turkey conquered Romania, Bulgaria and much of the Balkans until they were stopped thank God at the gates of Vienna.
      Also there are some Turkic Gaguaz in Moldova Bulgaria and Crimean Tatars and Nogay in Romania and Bulgaria.
      There are a few Tatars up in Finland, Estonia, Poland, etc. but not many.
      There are some Crimean Tatars in Ukraine but not many anymore.
      Of course there are a lot of Turkics in the Caucasus, not just in Azerbaijan but to the north also, to the east in Dagestan, and to the north into the plains somewhat and over by the Caspian Sea to the east. There are also Balkars and Tatars in the Urals.
      There are Turkic people in North Syria and North Iraq called Turkmen.
      There are many Turkic people in Azerbaijan, Iran and Afghanistan.
      There are even some Turkics in China (actually a lot) and there are even a few Turkics in Mongolia (but not many).
      If you guys hate Erdogan so much, why do you keep electing this monster?

      1. We don’t vote for erdogan the monster at all, but he is controlling now everything via press and occupied the most important organs like turkish army and judiciary in the country. so he is controlling the supreme election committee too and changing the results. His only voters are the dumb ignorants and radicals who constitute only 15-20% in turkey but they showcase as if it is more.
        we turks also believe that the usa played a significant role during his proceed 🙁
        you use the word ‘hate’ a lot, which I prefer not to use even against people that hurt us badly. Is it because you are full of negative feelings against turkish?
        I really dont understand why do you keep writing the turkish people in some countries. I know it already, remember, I am turkish. But, you are the one who knows very little about turks and most of your knowledge is biased. One point; turks didnt murder greek people, even when they conquered anatolia and istanbul, but many turks have been killed by greeks and armenians throughout centuries. I told you earlier that they are the ones who hate us mostly. Maybe it is a kind of rancor, who knows.
        You are right about the turkish people in the above mentioned countries, but you have only limited knowledge and it is due to lack of research. And what makes it worse is that you tend to believe in resemblance only. Turks encountered with these semitic people when they entered anatolia and mesopotamia (this was via sümers, long ago before they entered to anatolia). Greeks are from the same roots with armenians and kurdish, so their middle-eastern brown look along with the that of arabs started to change slightly the white look of real turks through mixed marriages. That is the only reality; real Turks are white and that is why they took the phenotype of the people they mixed with! (asian typology in asia and middle-eastern typology in anatolia and mesopotamia)
        You guys have another handicap: You still tend to believe turks only entered to Europe with Ottomans. Wrong! Turks were already there when ottomans showed up! On the contrary, Ottomans were the empire with less turkic characteristics. Turks migrated to europe long, long ago, as I have pointed out before, with the migration of tribes but the migrations took place several times in history. It didn’t happen all in once. Recall Atilla, his presence in europe was just one reason that started one channel of the migration of tribes. There are several other routes that turks followed earlier. They settled to northern and central europe, then to western europe as well. Shall I write the names of the clans? Are you ready for it really? I don’t think so. I have already written so much more than I intended to, but seeing your lack of knowledge but insistence on claims that are no longer valid, I felt an urge to write. That they turned to christianity from shamanism don’t make them another nation, they still have the same blood in their veins.
        Instead of talking from a huge distance, come to Turkey, investigate yourself (this call is for everybody who are interested and comment with a little knowledge)! I hope that you will not be frustrated, but you will find almost all the turks in northern, western and central Turkey to be fair people (with fair skin complexion and/or hair-eye colour) When you compare this with the brownish people on eastern-southeastern Turkey you will understand.
        As a final note, let me give some examples from my own family: They are the sad immigrants from Dagestan and other Cherkess region in northern Caucasia. They were forced by russians to leave their country after Shamil of Gimri lost war of deliverance against them. Although they are mostly muslims, you can still find christian and jewish people in northern caucasia as you can find them in Crimea, Tatarstan, Baskyrdistan etc. I have blonde hair and hazel eyes with a pale skin complexion while my grandparents, their peers and still many cherkess are all very white people with red-blonde-brown hair along with blue-green eyes. They didn’t mix with europeans or russians but only with turks in this country (of course, partially with kurds, arabs and armenians). We believe that we are turks no matter which clan name we have. So the genetic still flows and shows itself.
        I hope that I have made myself clear now. I am going on with my research for the doctoral study that I recently started and planning to visit northern caucasia, iceland, norway, finland and lappland to find out the migration route of turks as well as their culture and language. This is my ultimate goal and there are also others who are searching for the truth. You are clever people and please stay away from tedious cliche.

    2. To Buusra:
      Ashkenazim are not Khazar (or at least very little of their ancestry is) and they do not have much genetically in common with Krypchaks (who are a mix of North Caucasus—which is different from the more Middle Eastern-like genetics of certain Southermost Caucasus peoples like Armenians—, Eastern European, minor Central Asian, and possible minor Levantine ancestry). The original Turkic peoples were probably mostly Asian, like Tatars and most other Turkic peoples near the Turkic homeland in Central Asia (or quasi-Asian mixed with Caucasian, like the Turkomans and Kazakhs), not (generally) red headed Whites. Annatolian Turks are mostly native Annatolian (with some Greek on the West and Pontic coasts) with minor Turkic admixture (maybe higher in the East).

      1. Jm8; you have no clue about who those people are my dear. Look at their typology: Ashkenazi are red-blonde haired white people whereas sephardi and semitic jews are brown as usual. Search for Khazaria, do not only read sephardi jews and israeli who are very orthodox. They claim too much and that is why they write such articles. I think there is an afford again to change history
        So let me tell you what I derive from what I read here: ”We have a dream for establishing a great empire again in those land, so we try to create people and land that are related to us. We need kurdstan to reach our goal as we needed armenia”.
        Armenia? Are they south caucasian people?? Big laugh!
        They have reserved a land for armenians in southern caucasia to support this idea and russians as well. Poor armenians must have frozen in that land as they are semitic who are used to warm climate of their original land around syria. I don’t blame them but they have been used and are being used by big ideas. They are placed there to stand between azerbaijan and turkey as well, I think.
        Btw, did you read Arthur Koestler? He has researched his roots in the Thirteenth Tribe and came to the conclusion that they are turkic people from Khazaria:
        There are other sources as well, of course. If you ask to a romanian, ukranian, russian, polish or baltic jewish, they will tell you that they come from khazaria and they are original turks. I have read such articles and testimonials. It is so natural.

        1. Armenians are not Semitic. They speak an Indo European language. This is also true of Greeks, though both are racially Eastern Meditteranean like many Semitic peoples.
          Ashkenazim in general do not claim descent from Khazars. That is untrue (there may be a minor Khazer component in some, but it is quite minor if it exists)
          Most Ashkenazim are dark-brown haired and few are red or blond haired and their complexions vary from white to beige (of course exceptions exist). They also tend to have curly hair (I am very familiar with them. I live in New York city and have Ashkenazic ancestry. I ‘ve know many that would have easily blended in the Levant or Mediteranean, but looked quite different from the natives of the European countries from which their families had recently lived. The same can be seen in many Ashkenazic celebrities),
          Jews in North and Central Europe often stood out and looked vaguely foreign and generally darker than locals.
          In the US movie industry (most US Jews were Ashkenazim from Ukraine, Poland, and Germany), there was a saying that, “A Jew can play an Italian and an Italian can play a Jew.”—they were perhaps the largest groups of E. Med descent in the US at one time, but the could likely have been said of Greeks for instance—, referring to similiar East Med looks common among both (Italians in the US tended to be southern; Sicilian or somelimes Neapolitan).
          They often—though there are exceptions—have facial features strikingly similar to those of the Lebanese (narrowish faces and high briged noses), and other Eastern Mediteranean peoples like Greeks, Syrians, South western Annatolians, and Armenians). All of these peoples also have among themselves a non-trivial, sometime significant, minority of lighter haired/even blue eyed types and are significantly paler on average than the Middle Eastern peoples toward the south (eg toward Arabia). What minority light haired/blue eyed tendencies that there are in Ashkenazim may be slightly enhanced by the small Eastern/Central European element in them.”
          Koestler has been debunked. His book is very bad history and has been heavily criticised, (as have Elhaik and Sand—see my last link). There was an incentive among a contingent of Jews in Europe to attempt to gain acceptance from westerneres and combat Anti-Semitism by making claims that they were really Europeans. Koestler was of that school of thought, but the claim is largely false.
          (Those well known light haired individials may/sometimes have recent non-Jewish European ancestry, and such intermarriage was rare historically but has become more common in some places in the last few decades-half century or so in some places, ie in the US and Russia.)
          pictures of Askenazim
          Some of Maurice Gottleib’s painting of Polish Jews at the bottom of link: See especially, “Jews Praying in the Synagogue on Yom Kippur, “:

        2. “Armenia? Are they south caucasian people?? Big laugh!”
          Armenia is located between the base of the Caucases and the north of Annatolia. I making a distinction between people from that region and those from the North and Central Caucasus ( as they are distinct genetically,).

    1. Really?? According to which fact or research are you saying this? Or do you recall the ethnic asian change you caused to white turks that lived in your region which was theirs as well thousands of years ago? Like mixed-blood turks in central asia?
      Some Turks might have got some brownish look after encountering and having relationships with middle-easterns but it never shows that they are similar. We only borrowed their genes in that region as we took it from mongols and chinese as well when we were living in that neighbourhood.
      You guys don’t forget: People of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and even Iraq look less like arabs; it is just because the local arabs and bedouins mixed with beautiful white cherkess people that ottoman empire placed there after russia expelled many of them from north caucasia (exhile) starting from 1864 ! That is why arabs dont like them at all, they call them ‘turks’ !

      1. Maybe if they mixed with some people from the Arabian peninsula area they got Black genes.
        Lebanese, Syrians, etc. don’t really have those Black genes.
        Turks are basically those folks with some Asian genes, which do make them seem different.
        BUT, they’re White.
        You’re preaching to the choir.
        I accept Turks as White.

        1. I understand your point.
          Don’t get me wrong please. I only try to defend my ideas and thesis about the origin of my people against a crowd of stereotypes and cliche that exist especially in the western world:(

  3. Yea, but the Turkish elite being Asiatic will totally change the nature of society.
    It’s a v serious problem, Guru Gobind Singh Ji actually said to destroy the Turks. filedropper.com/uggardanti11 P.20

  4. Jm8, What makes you so devastated about having Khazaria as the ancestors of Ashkenazi? They are very developed, beautiful people, so I suspect other reasons. Ashkenazi outnumbers the fistful of semitic jews, though. Of course Elhaik and other plan-pursuer semitic jews will criticize Koestler; they are after changing the history according to their goals like they did before.
    I dont know you and your family but almost all the ashkenazi that I know in turkey and europe are fair people with red-blonde hair, accepting their connection to khazaria. It is still valid and largely accepted. If you judge them according to their brownned skin complexion (if any) in the USA after mix marriages with semitic jewish, go ahead, noone will stop you.
    I can take care about this matter anyway after completing my doctorate thesis, but I dont have time for it now. I have no intention of going into a discussion with you or another on this matter for the time being. It is quite political and controversial and needs special attention which I can’t handle now.

    1. “What makes you so devastated about having Khazaria as the ancestors of Ashkenazi?”
      Nothing “devastates” me about it. If it were true that would be fine. I would’nt particularly care either way (I might prioritize the study of a Turkic language over Hebrew and Latin, but thats about it). I have no ideological investment either theory. (I have no dogmantic religous beliefs and do not subscribe to the chosen people doctrine or any thing like that.). There is much in Turkic—as well as Annatolian—and Central Asian culture that I admire, notably its beautiful music. The evidence for the Khazar theory (in its strong form that is) is simply not there, and it is largely rejected by scholarship—contrary to your claim below (I linked some of the genetic and historical evidence and you have ignored it.)
      “It is still valid and largely accepted. If you judge them according to their brownned skin complexion (if any) in the USA after mix marriages with semitic jewish, go ahead, noone will stop you.”
      Mixing with non Askenazim has nothing to do with it. Most Jews in Central and Eastern Europe (west of the Russian pale of Jewish Settlement i.e. west of arround Belarus/westernmost Russia) and the US—esp. before WWII—were wholly Ashkenazic (many of the pictures I linked were from Europe).
      “almost all the ashkenazi that I know in turkey and europe are fair people with red-blonde hair,”
      In East And Central Europe they were historically perceived (by the majority) as darker haired and swarthier than the general population and there have been studies that confirm this (though they are light by Mid. East standards, often resembling the many paler Lebanese and Syrian types. Many are also pale skinned with dark hair).
      Few Jews remained in Europe after WWII. Those that live there now are highly likely to be mixed, with a recent non-Jewish parent or grandparent Ethnic mixing and the assimilation of minorities was encouraged in the mid-late Soviet Union, and minority religions and languages were suppressed.
      Some have light hair, but they are a minority. I went to a heavily Jewish college, as well. The great majority are Mediterranean in appearance—though there is variation, as mentioned. Some full Ashkenazim are as dark as I am, and I am a tan-skinned mullatto, with one side of my family being mostly Black African in origin.

  5. Jm8, also, I need to express that I do not believe in the language groups that western people believe. All of them, especially Indo european are awkward and unreliable. This is another topic that I will be working on later. Armenians are close relatives of kurdish who have persian origin, so they are jolly well semitic. They do look semitic as well. Your lovely Elhaik will confirm it too, no worries

    1. Kurdish is an Indo-European language also (Iranic like Farsi/Persian). Neither it nor Armenian are is Semitic.
      I along with the majority of researchers, do not agree with Elhaik’s hypothesis (he is of a similar largely discredited school of thought with Koestler and is desputed in some of my links).

      1. You can believe whatever you want my dear, I am wasting my precious time here. However the truth is over there, shining like the sun, but you are closing your eyes. I can’t make you open them.
        I will keep on investigating and researching, in the meantime you can enjoy yourselves playing with these sweet and purposeful cliches:) Stay away from science and research!

        1. I won’t be able to do that as I sit on the peer review board of a journal of Turkic linguistics out of Turkey. I also have a chapter coming out in a new book about Turkic linguistics. In the chapter, I mostly talk about language, but I did talk a lot about history and origins too.

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