We must admit that the Black race displays a lot of typical human pathologies at quite elevated rates.
Truth be told, it is all this bad behavior and not the color of their skin that causes so much racism against Black people. If Black people looked exactly like they do now but acted like Norwegians or Japanese people instead of how they do act, I do not think many people would hate them simply based upon the color of their skin or or the way they look.
Almost all Black people get very mad when you bring this up, and they issue the usual rejoinders like, “But other races do all these same things too!” You try to tell them it’s not so much the behaviors themselves but the rates at which they are displayed that makes all the difference in the world, and they just don’t get it.
And if you bring up the concept that someone might simply wish to avoid or not deal with racial or ethnic groups that display bad behaviors at an elevated rate, they flip out and insist that this notion is racist. Life’s an odds game, and they just don’t get it. Almost all Blacks insist that aversive racism is simply racism and is completely irrational.
If my group, Group A, engages in some bad behavior, say homicide, at X rate, and another group, Group B, engages in homicide at a rate that is 8X that of my group, I think I would prefer to live around my group as opposed to Group B.
I am anticipating the typical anti rejoinder here “But Group A commits homicide too!” Yes, there is homicide in Group A’s community. Of course there is. Homicide is a typical, common human behavior after all.
But homicide happens a lot less frequently in Group A’s community as opposed to Group B’s community, so your odds of getting killed via homicide are much less in Group A’s town than in Group B’s town. Hence you might want to consider the racial breakdown of some area that you plan to move to. And in that sense, race is indeed quite important, and it shows that antis are wrong when they say that race is not important at all and anyone who puts any emphasis on it is nuts.
This is why we need to pay attention to race. My sort of race realism more than anything else simply says that race is real, and it is important in society, if only for the example above that the racial breakdown of a place might influence whether you wish to move there or not.
And this is one of the reasons I want to talk about race on this site. Because race is important in society, like it or not, and it needs to be talked about, dammit. The antiracist/SJW line that we can’t discuss race outside the parameters that the antis and the Left have set up for us is absurd and insane.
Phil is a really interesting fellow, and you might be interested to know hat he is a teenager who is still in high school. He’s not even an adult yet and he’s smart as a whip!.
149 thoughts on “Why Race Is Important”
I disagree. It’s more about class. You have a high chance of death in a “ghetto black” community. You would not in one populated by Will Smith or Tiger Woods. Now it is true that a chance of death in a poor black neighborhood, is more than in a poor white one. However, that sort of isn’t relevant to what I’m saying.
Perhaps class AND race would be two factors, but they would have to combined.
I would rather live in poor white community than rich black community, I bet there is more crime and violence in rich black community than in poor white community.
Will Smith and Tiger Woods are very mixed race, so they are not good example of “black race”
It may depend on your visualization of rich Black communities places were celebrities are will likely be less violent but places like business owners like in Atlanta are likely to have higher crime rates.
Tiger is definitely mixed significantly but Will I think wasn’t as “blatantly” mixed, meaning that his parents were mixed to begin with.
Wow. How much of this forum is wasted on alien races and their IQ? Perhaps, we should be examining how to counter the massive and deliberate dumbing down of America via the media, entertainment industry and other factors. Perhaps, instead of trying to figure out why “A spade is a spade” , we should be focusing on training, strengthening and preparing new waves of strong, independent minded and courageous white youth. We should be trying to figure out why so many innately intelligent Euro-Americans choose to emulate monkeys and fools.
Wow wtf? uber face palm…youd bet good $s rich Black communities have more crime than poor Whites? my gawd this is a prime example of an ingrained blind racist bias. can i please take your bet…i need some extra x mad cash. you need to visit capital hights in DC(were i have family members ) or other upper middle class & rich Black neighborhoods. your actually saying a trailer park or all white housing projects like the type youd find in Kentucky(which ive also visited) are less violent & crime ridden than a rich Black neighborhood like Uniondale New York? im gobsmacked oh & Will Smith is not bi racial nor are any of his kids
Perhaps not in the 99.99th percentile, but even high ses black communities have homicide rates much higher that most poor white communities….
Any group including whites is a candidate for being labeled “bastards” if they’re in a region dominated by another race. If anything bad happens, then racial profiling becomes rampant.
I saw this is South Korea as a reaction to the Korean displeasure with the US army accidently running over two middle school girls (around 2002), and the Olympic games loss (kind of a shallow stupid reason to hate), as well as Bush’s unpopular tough stance against North Korea.
As for America, we can see that in any black or hispanic neighborhood, it can easily become unfriendly, because of racial profiling (against whites) and also white areas can be full “less than politically correct” redneck whites who call blacks “niggers” and whatnot, and would jump on black people if they did something majorly wrong.
Now some will say to not be so sensitive and ignore it like a man, but as we can see on this blog, a lot of sensitivity exists about race. Why do you think all these race realist blogs are out there? Apparently race makes people angry, though in the new PC world, people are trying to act like, “Well, it’s not a big deal. I’ll just brush it off.”
Of course, sometimes the targeted racial victim (of a racist attack) may have done things to bring on the situation. However, usually the punishment of the targeted person is overkill, mainly because he is being a scapegoat for racial resentment etc..
Definitely targeted racial victims (even if the somehow brought on the problem) are the “punching bag” for racial resentment,the scapegoat. And some people have the gall to call people who complain about being a victim, a douchebag. 🙄
You’re one of those, calling White Nationalists “douchebags” for not wanting to be the targets of these scum, right?
I was actually surprised about how this was far more coherent than Jay typically is, but were it fails is that this can pretty much apply to White Nationalists and basically shows where he’s been wrong for so long
The difference is that, while Whites are “technically” the largest ethnic group here their actual political and cultural identity isn’t dominant in the mainstream Media which is run by the Cultural Left thus when something bad happens…….you all know this song by now.
The thing is that Jason calls them out on their behavior concerning other groups, however his flaw is making that out as all they are and ignoring actual facts by them.
“Definitely targeted racial victims (even if the somehow brought on the problem) are the ‘punching bag’ for racial resentment,the scapegoat. And some people have the gall to call people who complain about being a victim, a douchebag. :roll:”
This has pretty much been his treatment towards White Nationalists by focusing on the negative aspects (getting themselves into the situation) and dismissing everything else in a monolith (overkill). Robert, despite not liking WN’s for the same reason agrees with points that Jason doesn’t accept.
I find this humorous how making sense is working against his actions, I knew something didn’t sit well for me when reading his comment.
“Yeah, I can’t see any difference between the tribalism of ‘non-politically correct whites’ and that of any other race worldwide. Pretty much these people ignore PC, say what’s on their mind, and at times can be very mean and cruel no doubt.
These people are just as un-PC as when PC never existed. Just drive down to many small towns, and you will see what I mean: some of the most homophobic and racist people imaginable (just like you’d see among any other race on Earth).
The only people rising above the vulgarity might be strict practicing Christians and hardcore liberals.”
Granted I see what he means, but as I pointed out in the thread under my article he went to far and generalized Santoculto and made an ass out of himself. I even pointed out how he had more in common with the types he was describing more than Santoculto by doing this to his comments.
“Yeah, I can’t see any difference between the behavior of ‘oppressed minorities’ and savage primitives throughout history. Pretty much these people don’t value civilization, do anything they want without second thought, and hardly give resemblance to any form of humanity.
These people are just as uncivilized as when civilization never existed. Just drive down to many Ghettos, and you will see what I mean: some of the most primitive and violent people imaginable (rarely what you’d see among any other race on Earth).
The only people rising above the vulgarity might be mixed and white administered individuals .”
Honestly I don’t agree with either one COMPLETELY, but just important segments that should be acknowledged.
The point is that Jason does the same thing with anecdotes while WN’s does it with both Anecdotes and statistics but I’ll admit many abuse it. Still, Jason isn’t nearly as above them as he think he is.
Yeah, I can’t see any difference between the tribalism of “non-politically correct whites” and that of any other race worldwide. Pretty much these people ignore PC, say what’s on thier mind, and at times can be very mean and cruel no doubt.
These people are just as un-PC as when PC never existed. Just drive down to many small towns, and you will see what I mean: some of the most homophobic and racist people imaginable (just like you’d see among any other race on Earth).
The only people rising above the vulgarity might be strict practicing Christians and hardcore liberals.
What can I say but thank you Robert. Honestly with all this talk about IQ it sometimes hard to feel motivated but I just stop to think about my family and the Blacks people I love and the things about Blacks that I love to move on.
However, this isn’t simply about uplifting race, but tackling a problem long ignored.
Black pathology, with all the details and evidence around the web, I found out possible solutions to take action on a public scale. It would have to work in stages, first eliminating the more severe effect and then focusing on support.
Basically my aims are to make it where Blacks are in the condition in which support can help and then will lead them into true progress that one could see with their eyes and tell the difference.
Jason if you have any cited study on evidence of environmental factors explaining or amending gaps and we are really all the same then fucking do it already, if not I’m probably going to have to beat your ass like I did in the comment section of my article.
My evidence? Basically Rob’s post on pathology and culture and the Black Chief Khama who managed to use religion’s influence to uplift his tribe into more modern times.
Also, let me give you some perspective. You’ve been on this Blog for, oh, years when I’ve only been here for mere months and managed to actually gain Robert’s attention and respect because I didn’t stick with your consistent garbage that “all do it” or “it’s environmental”.
For thousands, no, hundreds of thousands of years we’ve developed into the the populations we are and have go through stages of environmental pressure, either climate based of economical (lifestyles), and admixture selecting of various complex attributes like another case of polymorphism within a species.
Show me, give me proof that can debunk this general consensus’s effects because BELIEVE ME AND THE REST OF US, it would be so DAMN EASIER if this can all be solved environmentally (ironic though considering even Robert mentioned how their seems to be only so much environment can do).
Make any claim you fucking want, white racists, incest, class, whatever just show me proof.
I think the IQ gap may have a lot to due with the maternal age difference between ethic groups.
I’m intrigue, can you specify?
There have been studies on maternal age effect on IQ from the 70s to modern times and is mention on the wiki article on Intelligence and Environment.
So I looked into this to found more recent references.
Now lets look at the maternal age differences between ethic groups.
It actually lines up perfectly with each group’s IQ average in the US. Now remember the UK CogAT and GCSE chart? Those Irish Travellers were pretty low.
Probably partly because they tend to marriage young and likely have children at young ages as well.
I was reading ” Brighter Brains – 225 ways to elevate or injure IQ” that also mentioned other things that go on in the womb like maternal depression and maternal stress effecting an offspring’s IQ greatky. I’m going to read up more on it later. This is not to say that these are the only reasons for the gap though.
I already made a reply, but its not showing up. Probably awaiting approval since it is kinda long. Here is the short version:
To Ben, actually I don’t think it can be applied to Blacks because if we look at the U.S Black population Black women are more common then Black men.
To Ben, Sorry I meant to type that high IQ Black women were more common.
to 88, nice catch
To Ben, Baker’s Book I think will be a comprehensive piece for my studies of Precolonial Africa, thank you.
To Ben, I believe I figured out the mystery concerning the Ife heads in Baker’s book. Have you heard of Bryan Shiers Orford’s Book that came out lately called “The Builders of Zimbabwe?”. Basically it’s the latest book concerning it’s origins, the conclusion being Indonesians,Portuguese, Kilwa Arabs, and Sena Jews being responsible for the foundation of stone building in that region of Africa.
What he also mentioned that prior to the Bantu Invasion that Horners like the Afars, Nilotes, and Oromo people went into Nigeria via the Chad Basin.
This is also supported by archaeological research revealing similarities between these cultures (Yoruba, Igbo) as well as evidence of trade going towards 2000 B.C.E
So they might explain the Eurpoid likenesses shown in some of the Bronzes and terracotta. The thing was though that I always thought it was Nile Valley influence that would’ve contributed to the heads because those sculptures were often stylized like Ife heads while Greek ones were more exact using extreme measurements.
Thanks, I’ll look into this and it seems promising.
The post has been approved already.
The most likely explanation, imo, is that more intelligent women wait until they are older and in a steady relationship and financially secure before having kids, and then they pass their higher IQ genes onto their kids. Less intelligent women, who also tend to come from lower socio-economic classes, are more likely to get pregnant as teenagers, then pass on their genes to their kids. If age of first pregnancy is actually related to the IQ of the mother, then there’s the explanation.
I think this might be dealt with in the freakonomics chapter on race and IQ.
…a question you might want to ask is does the correlation between age of mother’s first pregnancy and child’s IQ hold within races too. If so, the average differences of age of first pregnancy between races is most likely the result of IQ differences, not the cause.
…and of course you’d need to know if there is a correlation between mothers IQ and age of first pregnancy, as I said.
To Steve, I was skeptical of how legit it was because it seemed to me that early parenthood in the Black community came off as a result of lower IQ, meaning less impulse control in regards to sex and what not, though I was curious if adjustment of what age the mother was regardless of her IQ could disrupt the pattern even low IQ was the cause to begin with.
This explains that Blacks who have children around the same age as whites or Asian do about as well economically, though that would just give a correlation in terms of success which is correlated with IQ.
Basically I’m having doubts if later motherhood will effect IQ but perhaps later motherhood could effect economic outcomes in terms of not having later motherhood as a restrainer but that would guarantee success.
I’m not sure at this point, but I have read that later motherhood does correlates with higher risk in retardation.
Should be “wouldn’t”
I already address that in another post below.
Teen pregancy was not always high in the black community.
Now according to Charlies Murray the B-W gap was significantly closing until the 1960s. The 1960s is when the black family structure started to fall apart.
From the link above.
Thanks for the info.
To Ben, actually this piece seems to have token place around the mid 1960’s based on the sources it was referencing in the first paragraph, so it would be a few years after the decline.
Ben often quotes bias sources anyway.
Anyway, according to Charlie Murray the B-W gap was narrowing significantly until the 1960. Which is right when the decline happened.
Ben, while accurate in many respects regarding HBD, I do admit has a tad bit of bias in maintaining the validity in trends, though I feel based on the literature he provides I think is motivated by many trying to pass them off as fiction.
Still, I can’t say he is the worst commenter that I’ve seen and to be fair I can say he has good aspects.
I wouldn’t say just a tad bit, as he has quoted “erectus walks among us”…
Now I will admit that, while the book likely did make somewhat accurate assessments, they would’ve pretty much been the same as modern HBD conclusions but less sophisticated due to limited resources.
Now regarding Native “Negroid” abilities to encompass civilization, from my research it varied but overall was considerably lower than that of Eurasia at the time but to be fair they were not exception rather than just a an caricature.
Still, while I’m honestly in the camp of genetics making a bigger contribution to potential than environment, I’m not opposed to efficient intervention methods and I mainly strive for intervention for specific individuals rather than en masse.
Regardless if you can supply a plausible thesis regardless of your position that all that matters to me.
To Ben, yes but not concerning the Family structure which only used the first three cited which from the mid 60’s.
“which were from the mid-60s”
In regards to the Narrowing I’ve had heard of the case even before this thread opened, and considering how this narrowing has appeared to have been closing until the 1960’s, doesn’t this pretty much fit with the thesis of how segregation’s organization pretty much benefitted the populations?
I think your confused on my stance. I don’t think that the period of cultural advancement changed there test scores, I even took in account that there probably wasn’t that much of an significant increase during that time.
My point was that according to Data that there was cultural advancement to speak of.
Should be “you’re” not “your”.
I’ve read the part concerning Blacks contempt for other humans in general, though technically that was mainly dealing with Aboriginals as you stated rather than American Blacks.
Still I agree with your thesis for if there was such a closing IQ Gap in such a period of time with then it would’ve been looked upon by this point.
Do you have any other ethnographic material referring to aboriginals blacks, perhaps ones that can be more specific to certain ethnicities?
I’m pretty sure Ben is a neo-nazi based on that white genocide video he posted.
To Ben, I think what caused the cultural advancement was that the institution that blacks were in during segregation didn’t necessarily create a eugenic effect since the test scores stayed the same, but rather that the potential the population had was able to be more efficiently expressed.
If correct this can assist me in my current train of thought, in which to tackle the situation concerning blacks’ cultural failure one must distinguish the cause and the effect. To elaborate, it is IQ (cause) causes problems (effects) that produced by blacks that also hurts whites especially in modern institution, how ever rather then the tedious and complicated task of putting all efforts to change the potential of blacks by creating an institution, while not necessarily resembling but having similar effects to that of segregation?
Mine would basically have the more stable blacks of the communities to achieve more active power and administration within their communities, and perhaps create forms of eugenic effects happening within their as well but that would be a secondary approach once the full potential of the community has been reached.
The problem with a black in power is that too many aren’t actually commit to community uplift rather than corruptly benefiting himself. That is not to say there are no blacks with the right Idea, but rather they have lesser luck with persuading the black populace, I on the otherhand do a little better in understanding “their” language. As hard as it is for many with the right Idea, you can’t be “scrupulous” when learning about them because you’ll eventually your patience will wain and it will be hopeless. I’ve experienced and learned about blacks on multiple angles and while they are by no means angels, I do see some strong points and similarities I share in which I don’t feel “disconnected” and I can be flexible with them.
If you’ve read of missionary reports of that such African chiefs like Khama (Khame) or Moshushu (moshoeshoe) they were able to introduce new culture into their societies encompassing a similar balance between appreciation but still having standards.
“Man of Sin’s” post pretty much destroys the genetic theory in favor of the environmental theory, but I haven’t studied it enough yet.
However, in that case, you could say that white people of the past were dumber, cause they married earlier. However, I don’t think that was the case.
Even the nutritional theory makes more sense than ManOfSin’s post. Yes, I could see how a poor black woman with bad nutrition would birth worse kids than a white suburban housewife.
“Man of Sin’s” post pretty much destroys the genetic theory in favor of the environmental theory, but I haven’t studied it enough yet.
However, in that case, you could say that white people of the past were dumber, cause they married earlier. However, I don’t think that was the case.”
Okay……….Black Families may’ve been more stabl at that time but the IQ data shows that their was an INCREASE in IQ rather than DECREASE Starting in the 1920’s up to the 1970’s).
Granted you could argue that the increase in teen pregnancy contributed to stagnating it, but it should’ve resulted in a full on decline in Black IQ.
There was also a huge envrionmental decline in the African American lifestyle (I take it we are discussing them and not Africans.) during and after the 1970s. Note, this coincided with the decline of the family and the rise of drug use. How can we possibly ignore this fact, or bring up silly things like “natural selection” or even what I brought up “incest”.
Perhaps the envrionment is mostly to blame.
Actually among some conspiracy theorists, there is a thing where they think the CIA planted drugs in the African American neighborhoods on purpose, to destroy them, hence also destroying the “Black Power” movement and other left wing stuff which threatened the establishment.
Note, that people hooked on crack etc.. only care about getting high. Note the stuff destroys families, neighborhoods, everything it comes into contact with. It’s so powerful, you can’t really bring up natural selection and other biological stuff without laughing. 🙄
Wth Arabs and Pakistanis specifically though, it’s pretty obvious, and science can back it up, that incest is the big thing holding down thier civilization (IQ etc..).
Not everyone in the black community becomes a teen mom.
To Man Of Sin, I guess I should rephrase “full decline”, by which I mean that simply a halt in IQ progression shouldn’t have been enough but a decline towards numbers previous of past increases before the 1960’s.
“CIA planted drugs in the African American neighborhoods on purpose, to destroy them, hence also destroying the “Black Power” movement and other left wing stuff which threatened the establishment.”
Well, they missed a spot, do you see the riots on TV even today? Apparently, rioters DON’T take legal holidays off!
Also Black Lies Matter and affiliated scum.
Also, as to drugs “so powerful, you can’t really bring up natural selection and other biological stuff without laughing”? Please, start laughing:
This is PBS, a left-leaning source.
Of the major racial/ethnic groups, the rate of drug use is highest among the American Indian/Native American population (10.6%) and those reporting mixed race (11.2%), followed by African Americans (7.7%), Hispanics (6.8%), whites (6.6%). The lowest rates are found among the Asian population. (3.2%).
Even there, the races have different Levels of buying, which indicates different Levels of addiction. More importantly, it destroys the myth that Mexicans are selling to an insatiable WHITE demand!
Even our pioneers had figured out Indians were more susceptible to addiction, which is why firewater was traded at all!
Natural selection is way overrated. People are just people. People are generally the same everwhere. If there are differences than minor genetic influences and major environmental factors are probably to blame.
For instance, there was a story recently of a black man in Detroit who killed a 91 year old man and set him on fire (to destroy evidence). Ok, well, first of all, let’s not the environmental factor, the ghetto, made him vastly different than Tiger Woods etc..
Sorry for mispelling. I type fast and this keyboard and WordPress don’t get a long.
People, please, don’t discuss with a genius, Jay-son know what he’s talking!!! 😉
For Jay-son, race is just a SOCIAL construction, BUT race is FUNDAMENTALLY a BIOLOGICAL construction easily proved by physiological and psychological combination-traits. Even, nothing is just a SOCIAL construction. Every human collective divisions have a biological foundation. What separates ”races” than ”peoples” (or urban tribes) is just:
behavioral (cultural) differences,
predominance of biological variables, because some bio-social constructions are more social than bio, but still essentially bio.
Jay-son is saying that the king have a beautiful blue-greenish clothe but us, who are CHILDREN (and most of the children tend to be extremely sincere about what they are seeing) we are just saying what we are seeing, in other words, the king/emperor is naked (there are races/ racial differences are not just superficial).
Note that Jay-son and other typical liberals change their premises. A not-so far time, liberals would be denying the existence of human races. Now, they change ”their” premises because ”human races there are” but this differences are supposedly extremely superficial.
I can agree that differences are not so enormous like many people would like were, but the environmental extremism proposed by Jay-son reduce this racial differences at microscopical level.
Race was purely about phototypes.
The word ”biology” is meaningless and valueless for almost liberals.
Blue eyes are not biological, are just phototypical.
BECAUSE white racism is the worst thing there is in the universe.
Before, ”race don’t exist”
Now, ”RACIAL DIFFERENCES (race, now, exist) is superficial”
Tomorrow, ”races are just phototypes*** ”
racial differences ARE and not IS, 😉
Meant to say “phenotypes”…and it is. Melanesians, Negritos, and Australoids were(and still to this day) considered apart of the “negroid race”. Despite being more genetically closer to Eurasians.
But it is not a evidence that human races are biological construction. Phototype is part of biology.
But it is not a evidence that human races are NOT a biological construction. Phototype is part of biology.
I think this a great list, santoculto.
Let us see some examples:
Marriage patterns: four wives for a man.
Behavioural cultural differences: jihad for world domination.
Physiological/psychological: curcumcised penis, a permant tribal mark of inclusion in a world wide religious tribe of Islam. Blacks will mark their faces permantly with incisions as well,but for local tribal inclusion
Biological variables that are social but predominantly biological:ability to run in modern olympics for black sprinters in the hundred meters leading which to widespread social acclaim.
Ben, this would serve as a valuable resource but trust me when I saw that the critique of blacks for me at this point is like a skipping record.
“To Ben, I believe I figured out the mystery concerning the Ife heads in Baker’s book. Have you heard of Bryan Shiers Orford’s Book that came out lately called “The Builders of Zimbabwe?”. Basically it’s the latest book concerning it’s origins, the conclusion being Indonesians,Portuguese, Kilwa Arabs, and Sena Jews being responsible for the foundation of stone building in that region of Africa.
What he also mentioned that prior to the Bantu Invasion that Horners like the Afars, Nilotes, and Oromo people went into Nigeria via the Chad Basin.”
I do not believe this idea regarding the Zimbabwe culture has any support in the archaeological evidence or in the research of archaeology.
I could not find much on Shiers, but he does not seem to be a scholar in
the area(or a very reliable or scientific source) . One of his other books is titled “Noah’s Flood in Southern Africa” which is summarized thus in google books:
“This book places particular emphasis on Noah’s Flood and its impact on Southern Africa. It helps explain the dinosaurs, fossil record, the Flood Sea, Australopithecus, dune and rock formations, mountains and lakes, mineral deposits, early man, and animal migrations.”
Various non-African origin theories similar to that repeated by Shiers were advanced some prior to the beginning of excavation in the sites and were favored by the colonial establishment of Rhodesia, which for political reasons claimed that Bantu groups had arrived in the region only recently (usually claimed less at than 200 years) before whites, (They were also disinclined to accept evidence of pre-colonial native cultural complexity.) There has been much work up till recent times on the Zimbabwe culture and its evolution in archaeology form native archaeological predecessors (the influence of the nearby (distinct but related) Mapungubwe culture, and successor polities with “Zimbabwe-like stonework e.g.: Khami Dlo Dlo, Thulamela .
Most research does not find evidence of foreign influence as culturally important
Though there is some debate on the importance of economic gain from by the gold mining (along with cattle herding and trading, and agriculture) by the Zimbabwe state (at one phase), and the the trade in gold between(indirecty through African intermediaries) it and Swahili coast
Some researchers: Chapurukha M. Kusimba, Innocent Pikirayi, Thomas N. Hufffman, Peter Garlake
Regarding the Ife heads
I would not take Baker as an source on early African history. He was not well informed in it, nor seemingly too concerned with accuracy (and was not historian or an archaeologist let alone an Africanist).
His opinion in Ife (as far as I can tell) is basically a restatement of the Theory of Leo Frobenius, an early victorian discoverer in the early 1900’s of some of the heads,hypothesizing(far fetched) connections to Greek culture(based largely on their realism, which he took as evidence of foreign influence.)
There is nothing especially Nilotic about the Ife culture. Evidence of influence from cultures form the nile on Yorubaland is weak by the current evidence, The evolution of states indigenously in that region is well supported .
Chadic and some Nilo Saharan cultures more remote connections to the general Nile region (south of egypt) from the Neolithic or dso. In the later Middle ages various W. African cultures(Ife and Igbo Ukwu) were at times linked to trade routes that ultimately connected to Egypt (the few near eastern trade items found in Nigeria from that era include beads) but these were very indirect, contact was unlikely.
There is no evidence in any Oromos in Nigeria, nor of Nilotes, or Afars. There was a migration of peoples of speaking a branch of Afro Asiatic, now known as Chadic to the Northern part of (what is now Nigeria). Nilo-Saharan (but not Nilotic) groups also settled there in the holocene. The was never bantu migration into Nigeria, as the remaining groups of Nigeria (and most of west Africa) belong to various(non bantu ) branches of the large Niger Congo language group, of which bantu is a single relatively very late diverging off shoot which spread from central Africa and to the south and east. Proto Niger-Congo’s age is unknown, but estimated at 11,-15,000 BC Or earlier. Proto-bantu diverges around 3,000 BC( from the Benue Congo clade within Niger-Congo) near Cameroon-The Western Congo. Different groups of Niger- Congo speakers(which now are found there) in the Chad Basin and and Nigeria at different times. Some predating the Chadic migration. Modern Chadic Peoples, both Hausa of N. Nigeria, and the tribes of the Mandara region of Cameroon have very low, to bear absent levels of Eurasian autosomal (overall) ancestry, though the Mandara tribes have high rates of a divergent branch of R1b Ydna .
The is no evidence that the Chadic speaking cultures were the source of Ife. The early cultures from the Chad basin (the Gajiganna and later the Sao culture), before and contemporary to (though they developed towns) are not exceptionally advanced (at least compared to Nok and the early Middle Niger valley town-states like Dia Shoma or Jenne Jeno), and early Chad basin sculpture is simple in comparison. A more likely source of influence on ife might be Nok culture(which shows evidence of social stratification and polities with organized craft specialization) of the Jos region at least 1,000 bc(some newest dates may be a bit older; research of Peter Breunig and Nicole Rupp) – to 200 ad. The exact connection is not known. The Nok groups probably spoke Niger-Congo languages as most modern Jos Plateau Tribes do. Earthen wall moat systems surrounding early states/polities, were built from at least 700 ad- ca. the 1500’s in parts of Yorubaland, at what became the Kingdom of Benin in nearby Edoland The archaeological record shows their evolution in size and complexity. . Similar structures occur at other sites of W. Africa, some near the same dates. Ife (Ife’s earliest proto-urban phase ca. 800 ad and It’s peak ; 12-1500 ad) is probably not the first state of its scale or complexity in Yoruba land, or In Central Nigeria. The oldest, Yoruba fortification (called Sungbo’s Eredo) surrounds the city state of Ijebu and are dated about 800 ad.
Linguist Rober Blench on early ethno-linguistic history of the Chad Basin
Both of the opinions you cited are essentially debunked to my knowledge, and were advanced before much archaeological work in Subsaharan Africa. Relevant were the discoveries of other Terracotta sculpture producing cultures in the area, including the Nok culture , and the medieval Yoruba city state of Owo, whose terracottas are similar is style to Ife’s , the ancient Kalabar culture of The Cross river region gives the oldest known use of the native Nsibidi script on excavated ceramics (often of quite high artistic quality) .
There are many Ife heads (now in museum and archaeological collections), and those which might be said to show vaguely high bridged noses are a minority ( and not always/necessarily evidence of Europoid influence), overall the faces are not unlike types occurring in current natives of northern Yorubaland and the Benue region (who show no evidence of admixture) Evidence
The writings of Graham Connah, Frank Willet, and Ekpo Eyo, Thurston Shaw, Peter Breunig , and Nicole Rupp, though not all the most recent still has much (still) relevant information.
Eyo, Ekpo, ed. Iconography and Continuity in West Africa: Calabar Terracottas and the Arts of the Cross River Region of Nigeria/Cameroon
(full pdf online)
Historical Archaeology in Nigeria
By Kit W. Wesler
African Civilizations: An Archaeological Perspective
By Graham Connah
…..Kalabar culture of The Cross river region gives the oldest known use of the native Nsibidi script on excavated ceramics (often of quite high artistic quality) . Was well as the many terra-cottas( most dating from 1000 ad-1400 ad) found in the sites of the afore mentioned towns of the NIger valley in Mali( The settlements themselves date from about 600 bc -1500 ad for Dia shoma, and 300 bc-1400 ad for Jenne jeno, They are linked to ancestors of the Mande speaking Soninke peoples along with still earlier settlements at dhar Tichtt and dhar Tagant near the S. Mauritania border from 2,000 bc 700 ad.
I hope it’s ok to post videos within reply posts the way they appear above . I had hoped they would show as links instead.
edit: The Dhar Tichit/Tagant dates are 2,000 bc-700 bc. (not -700 ad)
A reference to go with my comment on the genetics on Chadic speakers
Oh thanks for the info regarding Ife, but in term of Zimbabwe it does seems rather convincing to me in terms of how comprehensive he is.
For example much of the stonework there predates the Bantu arrowhead that would be in those regions (which would’ve been the Sotho/Tswana rather than the Shona). The Bodies found at those sights outside of Zimbabwe were mistakenly placed as Bantu when they were actually people who were mixed of Indonesians and Khoisan. Even huts found their were to big for people like Bantu and were more likely those of Khoi like structure but with Asian influence.
I honestly don’t think that anyone defending the Bantu Theory is incorrect, but I feel rather odd to believe that the structures would have UNIMPORTANT foreign influence especially when the Bantu made no structure with such material as well with them neighboring those who did.
Feel free to prove Shiers wrong, I don’t feel much of a need to defend him, but I think it’s best to tackle his thesis from his own work. Perhaps you can give me some specific studies that prove the Bantu Thesis? (BTW I’m familiar with Garlake, though the main argument he has is with the Portuguese witnessing Central African Bantu building one, in which Shiers claims that while those states had them they were actually built by Hired Sena. I would look up the other researchers but I terribly busy right now sorry).
By “his own work” I mean that I don’t feel competent at this moment to state some of his ideas concerning the origins because, Like I said, I’m busy.
BTW, I’ve seen you around and I must admit you seems like a rather skilled scholar on Africa. BTW In regards to Baker’s book, I think that the Africa sections weren’t written By him because it referred to him in the third person. The sextion was very comprehensive and actually had some good point on Blacks like Iron Smelting, crafts like pottery, music etc. but I understand that those type of things can seem patronizing when you’re someone who is more well versed on Africa.
Less than 1% of the black population commit homicide though.
True, but the crime still occurs at a disproportionate rate.
However, you give an important point of how representative certain types of Blacks can be but it’s less about representation but more on effect.
I’m honestly open to any explanations outside of RR as long as evidence can be backed up so feel free. to contribute/
So I’ve been looking at this. So far the correlation seems to be true, but where I have doubts on his what’s the causation. It could be that due to the lower IQ that they tend to be mothers earlier.
However now that you mention the effects that womb conditions can have on IQ that seems interesting.
Could you find a data table that can show that the mothers’ IQ along with that of the child’s or maybe you could point out something in the data that I’m not seeing because I’m not seeing a source of causation.
Don’t think so. There are some European populations with lower IQ averages(mid-90s) but have advanced maternal ages. I believe Latinos, Blacks, and Amerindians can be on par with those nations with advanced maternal ages.
Really, can I see the study if that’s the case? If so then we could be onto something.
This could mean that optimumal maternal age could be a prime factor with IQ Gaps.
For the maternal ages of some European countries?
That’s interesting, but if an increase were to happen, lets say for an African country, plus the addition of better environmental factors I can sadly only speculate that it will inflate to about 80 (probably the highest realistic genomic mean I see for African countries)
Now for Amerindians and Latinos however I can somewhat imagine their mean reaching closer to One hundred if what you point out is true.
For Blacks it’s a different issue. Essentially the 85 figure for Blacks is distributed with 80 for the south and 90 for the North (and I suspect that for Northerners who are decent of actual northern slaves rather than just migrants from the south would have less of an issue with early motherhood)
However, I still think of that what you say is indeed true then the south could go up to around 85, then the north perhaps 95-100 maybe bringing to whole average up to around 90 or so.
We still would have to consider though pregnancy differences with certain races, like they may not have the biological adaptation to have latter mother on a massive scale maybe due to fertility or female development differences by age.
Regardless, it’s a something worth investigating.
African countries have maternal ages in the teens, suffer from malunution(which can cause a 15 point drop), and seemingly cousin breeding, etc. There are a bunch of things that make make their IQs as low as they are.
What about in the States, where they not only DO NOT suffer malnutrition, most are actually OBESE?
And in Brazil** 😉
Again, you make a good point.
However I heard of a study in which an Asian Family adopted a Black child with the IQ of 75 that stayed that way despite better conditions, however part of it could be because of Maternal age so your theory still stands.
Cousin marriage densities vary from groups and regions in Africa, though it could be likely that many groups are depressed with it.
If you can find a study in which environmental study in which it shows Africans getting better IQ raises because I heard of it happened with a North Korean Child but not with an African one.
How old was that child when he/she was adopted? I’ve read on an article that malnutrition during childhood has permanent effects IQ.
I’m not sure, but the North Korean one was rather young, perhaps just a toddler, but I think the African one was around the same age.
quote by phil
What Phil is saying here makes sense. He admits incest plays a role somewhat, and also maternal age plays a role. Added to this mix of negativity, you could also add in a bad envronment for many people.
Anyhow, all these factors listed heavily outweigh climate based natural selection. I think maybe climate based natural selection may have played a small role in IQ formation, but it’s really a small role. Climate based natural selection factors are easily outweighed by nearly anything.
After considering this idea, then what idiots the people on Stormfront look like. Obviously, their obsession with climate based genetics is just an attempt to prove whites are vastly superior and nothing can be done about it, at least not for millions of years, which technically means, nothing can be done. 🙄
It’s like saying, “Well a dog will always be a dog, he’s not going to evolve into a something which might threaten me, at least not for a million years.”
Yeah, we know the sun is going to grow to a gigantic size (big enough to melt humans), but not for millions of years, so what do I care? 🙄
“What Phil is saying here makes sense. He admits incest plays a role somewhat, and also maternal age plays a role. Added to this mix of negativity, you could also add in a bad envronment for many people.
Anyhow, all these factors listed heavily outweigh climate based natural selection. I think maybe climate based natural selection may have played a small role in IQ formation, but it’s really a small role. Climate based natural selection factors are easily outweighed by nearly anything.”
I never denied that such factors contributed to it, however I object your thesis of it playing a more significant role than genetics significant role.
The second paragraph is just memorizing because based off of the studies I’ve been reading and zero Studies you have shown that suggest real causation rather than just speculation based of off correlation I would say that you are only projecting wishful thinking.
“Conversations with the low IQ can be boring. I do know that. Nonetheless, on the other hand, a reading of a Caclulus book reads like stereo instructions. :lol:”
While your actually IQ I’m unsure of, you definitely express incompetent intelligence because you hardly ever attempt to refer to source on the subject like I have and you only abuse factors brought up by OTHERS and only utilized a series of rehashing the same thesis over and over without properly penetrating arguments.
But what’s the point? I’ll just sit back and watch until you slipped up like last time with your rationality.
People here should understand or try to understand the nature of RECESSIVE, DOMINANT AND FIXED traits or trait-combination (phenotypes), optimum ceiling caused by environmental fluctuations and possible diversity of vulnerability via epigenetics (some mothers, who have less effective immune system, can be more affected by environment noise than others… and babies too).
Lower stature among pygmies is a example of possible FIXED phenotype. You can have a population with FIXED phenotype for intelligence, DOMINANT but still susceptible to be influenced by environmental fluctuations and RECESSIVE (of course, for ”intelligence”, should be specified).
By now no there any significative prove, at least that i had seen, showing large environmental impact on ”intelligence”. People give enormous importance to the modern lifestyle, they think that higher intelligence just can be improved in western standard first world circumstances.
Only relatively weak evidence about it is cavernous Flynn Effect.
This people who advocate for theory of bad nutrition as fundamental cause of lower collective (average’s) black intelligence, forget usually that this nutritional crisis among blacks not have been a constant in its history AND natural selection had operates significantly among them than for example among northern european, specially british, during XX century. So, is expected a decrease of intelligence among brits than in afros, or ”at least” in terms of ”biological quality”.
I do like to see improvement of intelligence AND behavior/personality among all human races, but we need to be in the right path to start to understand this mechanisms.
Many people look for plant development as example of importance of ”nurture”. I agree that, SEEMS, language and social interactions have greater importance in earlier years of brain development. I know that most of non-human animals no have imperious need to be socialized and this fact don’t seems affect their cognitive capacities. There are few cases of children who suffered by severe lack of social interactions and learning language. One of the most famous case was the ukrainian girl, now, she’s stablished in the society but she have a not so bad familiar historical (alcoholic father, very poor family). Even if indeed there is a imperious need for social interactions/learning language, to complete normal human brain development, this possible fact still doesn’t mean that ”racial average and not-so-average differences are just superficial”.
Its not theory but an actually fact that malnutrition in childhood can take 10-15 IQ points off. Blacks in the Bahamas which is a wealthy nation have much higher IQs than Black Africans.
Liberals always advocate for ”the facts”, while they say ”truth is relative”. It’s a contradiction because if truth is relative, then facts shouldn’t exist. Facts are never relative, this is your essential/conceptual nature. ”They” can be ephemeral but never relative. Truth can be diverse but never relative, because relativity creates a idea that two objects can occupy the same space and time.
Relativity is just a clever (idiotic) way to push liberal nihilism agenda about supposed relativity of morality. Every post-modern piece have a load of poison that/for paralyse western (i mean, specially white) suggestible minds.
Other ”little” problem is that they mistake EVIDENCE with SPECULATIVE EVIDENCE.
To prove something you need greater representative sample and precise observation about causality and/or correlation and not just throw a bunch of weak studies as if were real and DEFINITIVE proves.
About Bahamas. If i said ”is likely that bahamians pass for specific selective pressures”, they (the liberals) will call me a ”deterministic hereditarian”. But if they said that ”environment in Bahamas increase their intelligence than in Africa”, they are right, it is not deterministic. Dishonesty.
Is important also determine the limit of ”malnutrition” where baby will be really affected and not just to say ”malnutrition” will have a impact.
The ”size” of malnutrition but also the immune system of mother, genetic combination of father and mother that have (i think have) greater influence on epigenetic noise during pregnancy, fathers age, etc…
What we know, the facts is that the lower intelligence of most of blacks is a global trend with some exceptions and DENY selective pressures and other important biological stuff will not the right thing to do, of course.
Schizophrenia rates SEEMS higher among blacks than in whites and east asians. Also would be important analyse the spectral impact of the schizophrenia among non-clinically schizophrenic blacks, if psychosis tend to correlate with magical thinking, bizarre self-grandiosity (narcisism) and lower iq, specially performance.
Truth be told, it is all this bad behavior and not the color of their skin that causes so much racism against Black people. If Black people looked exactly like they do now but acted like Norwegians or Japanese people instead of how they do act, I do not think many people would hate them simply based upon the color of their skin or or the way they look.
I disagree with this. What you look like plays a huge role in how people treat you. Racial issues are not only behavioral but also physical. Yes behavior is huge part of the problem. If so many blacks didn’t act like monkeys then people wouldn’t hate them as much. However, it wouldn’t help the fact that most people view blacks as physically primitive and hideous looking. Especially the women. Discrimination factors in the appearance of race, not just the behavior.
If blacks acted like the Japanese and Norwegians they would be looked in a more positive light, but still be treated worse than both groups. Black physical features such as dark skin, wide noses, big lips, and kinky hair generally aren’t considered attractive.
A beautiful caucasian woman with lazy and dishonest eyes, for me, will be essentially ugly than ”good eyes”. The way how people see, the expression of their eyes seems have greater impact for me and a lot of beautiful caucasian and other race people are not virtuous and not valorous.
Exactly, i know some black and mulatto people who have not just a better behavior but superior than most of whites that i know.
People today, specially among nerds and other similar groups, give enormous value for ”intelligence”, specially social (and generally, sociopathic nature) and mathematical ones. Kindness in a materialistic world, become a ”cute” derrogatory trait.
Sadly true, Kareem.
On first impressions this is true, but is something that life maturity cures. I myself am never swayed by physical beauty.
But………….. this requires a constant diligence and an emotional commitment to stay closer headed beyond all else. This kind of training can make it easier to see beyond physical attributes. Indeed,l, perhaps take it too far, but it better to err on that side of the fence if one must fall into error.
Bahamas is more violent than Brazil today!!!
Well, ”bahamian iq was improved by environment”, now, the magical environment/nutrition need reduce violence, 😉
Barbados, on other hand, is slight more violent than USA.
”antifas” no have brain,
”antifas” no have brain.
Virtually no politically-correct, race-baiting white “anarchists” want to live around blacks or latinos. That’s why places like Portland and Seattle are full of these hypocrites who want to live out their utopian fantasy without dealing with the harsh reality of what “people of color” are really like in groups. They’ll hang up their “black lives matter” signs in their 90% white communities where they don’t have to worry about drive-by shootings, home invasions, and the overall blight and chaos that follows these “protected” groups like stink on shit. And it’s really not poverty driving this pathological behavior. Compare apples with apples. Let’s look at two places with high rates of rural poverty: Appalachia and central CA. Appalachia is actually far poorer than central CA, yet the violent crime rate is very low in comparison. Central CA is full of Mexican-origin people and increasing numbers of blacks and its an absolute cesspool full of gang violence and crime.
Thanks, young man!
The problem arises when one wants to define races and to group people. The trichotomy “Whites/Blacks/Asian” (with South Asians and others somewhere between) is simplistic and dumb as it could be. Such notion may work in the New World where most people are heavily metisized in one way or another and many can not trace their background at all (family legends are not counted). When your ancestors came all over Europe, or you even do not know their ethnic background at all, because they were exported as slaves from Africa or coolies from China, your only choice is to say you are White or Black or Asian.
But outside of the New World, where there is not any melting pot, but tribes, clans and nations are not so eagerly intermingling, this American trichotomy became ridiculous at its maximum.
Just an example. It is dumb to count North Europeans, Middle Easterners, South Asian as one group called “Whites” or “Caucasians”. Not just because the stupid names: the true Caucasians from the Caucasus do not represent the most ancient type, they are closest to the Middle Easterners; not all “Whites” have pale colour of their body and hairs.
And the skull form also means hardly anything. Even if the skulls of North Europeans and Middle Easterners are very close enough to claim they are the same, average Scandinavians and Arabs could be hardly more different. As well even if Italians could look sometimes like Arabs, they are also quite different.
So race is not just about skull, skin and hairs. It is not about haplogroups also. This recent haplogroup mania as ridiculous as the skull measurements in the 1930s. A haplogroup is just one feature of the DNA. If we measure everything by haplogroups, we should accept that an average Englishman with the R group is closer to an average Hindu with R, than to an average Swede with I. Isn’t it ridiculous?
So for now, if we accept that biology plays an important role in the behaviour of various nations, then something more precise, than the outdated skull measuring and the too trendy haplogroup mania, must be invented. Massive genetic comparison of the entire DNA might be used but I suppose it is very difficult for now. Otherwise, race comparison is ridiculous, people compare one vaguely defined group with another vaguely defined group and think it is scientific.
What I also want to say. Here in Europe we have no much Blacks (more precisely Sub-Saharan Africans). In most places they are not even 0.01%. So there are no such problems with Blacks like you face in the USA. No one in Europe cares about Blacks and do not understand your problems and your American anxiety with Blacks. But the niche of the US Blacks is not empty in Europe. In most cases it is filled by people from Middle East, North Africa, Central and South Asia. In some cases they are follow Europeans from such sunny countries as Albania, Bosnia or Romania. In the US they all would be most defnetly counted as “Whites”. But you would not definitely live in Arab, South/Central Asian or even Albanian “White” neighbourhood. So there is something wrong with this American “Whites” vs “Blacks” problem.
Albania, Bosnia or Romania. In the US they all would be most definitely counted as “Whites”.
Yes they would, with the possible exception of Gypsies (Roma).
But you would not definitely live in Arab, South/Central Asian or even Albanian “White” neighborhood.
Most South Asian and Arabic people in the US integrate pretty well. The big difference between Europe and the US for these immigrants is that there is more stringent filter for immigration from Pakistan, India, and the Middle East to the US, so we tend to get more college educated, westernized people. I’ve had Jordanian, Lebanese, Pakistani, and Iranian neighbors. All of whom were perfectly nice people, at least to me, and I am not at all a dreamy egalitarian, that’s just been my personal experience. Unfortunately I can not say thing for many (but certainly not all nor the majority ) of black Americans I have encountered.
I do agree that genetic relations don’t necessarily mean “the same” but I’m not seeing how just because there are people of the same race not getting along proves something wrong with the “Whites” vs “Blacks” problem.
Plus, sub races or “micro races” would explain Rus’ situation here, showing that even people within a race have issue together in one population. America axtually had an issue with Micro races from southern and eastern Europe in the Progressive era but the thing is that they eventually assimilated into the Anglo-Saxon culture of the U.S. better than Blacks.
You’ve explained yourself. Your Arabic/Asian neighbours are educated people from the upper 10-20% class. No wonder they are integrated and do not do any harm. So there are also enough integrated Africans in Europe. They are hardly different from the natives apart from their physical look and foreign names. In fact many Africans in Europe are not illegal immigrants but college students or educated specialists, who are harmless if not to say useful.
So even if the race plays a role in behaviour, there are many other very important factors. Education, social status, religion, cultural background may be much important than race. Not to say that we still do not know how to properly define races (the US Census Bureau with the dumb “White/Black/Asian” categories is not an authority on this matter at all). If I’m asked who are more harmless, British chavs and other White-European ghetto hooligans or African students, I’ll vote for African students. I do not say because Europeans also commit crimes, we could forgive Africans for their crimes and allow every African to come to Europe. I’m against any hooligans and criminals of any race.
I just do not go for this notion that these Arab/Afghani/Pakistani/etc. immigrants are better because their skull forms are similar to yours so they are as “White” as you, but those Africans immigrants are much worse, because of their black skin and their different skulls.
And your example with Gypsies is very significant. In fact biologically Gypsies are much closer to the European populations than it is thought. And they are obviously much closer than allegedly “White” Pakistanis/Indians. Gypsies have been always open to new “blood” and easily mixed with local populations. But also they have always been on the bottom of the social structure. They have been always despised by everybody as lowest class citizens. And this low social status is still in effect, the modern Gypsies inherit this status from their ancestors.
So the position of US Blacks looks very similar. They were slaves, the lowest of the society. And they were many, so they could make a different social group with the particular behaviour of a lower class. Even with the emancipation and positive discrimination, you cannot get rid of this social behaviour at once. This behaviour is being inherited from generation to generation directly from their despised Black slave ancestors.
So the problem with US Black may not be racial at all, but socially inherited, as it is not a racial problem with the European Gypsies as well.
Who wants to integrate a group that robs, kidnaps, rapes, and murders?
Look up Robert’s own articles about the Gypsies. 5 out of 5 encounters have been negative. He doesn’t want a 6th one. I would call this learning from past mistakes. You would call it “racism”, right?
Let’s say it IS only a Class Problem, with race sublimated for class because it’s so much more visible?
Those high-CLASS Black immigrants behave as well or better than the locals, right? But here’s the thing: We of the Civilized World are accused of Brain Drain from lesser countries and even from American Blacks.
Why would these well-behaved entities return to the Hell On Earth full of dumb, violent versions of themselves? Answer: They wouldn’t–which is why we have so many “student visa overstayers” Wink!
To the savages Left Behind, it looks like the Civilized World is cherry-picking the Best&Brightest out of their shit genepool. To us, it looks like we’re rescuing them. If we DON’T let them stay among us, they’ll have to go back. What awaits them there? They clearly cannot engender any improvement in their own countries. There was a newspaper article back in 2012 that students from India want to return to America, because the Government of India won’t listen to them and their “newfangled” Civilized World ideas!
So all they can do is:
1.) Watch their country continue on the same way they always have.
2.) Get killed by the savages.
Apparently, they don’t have a “Critical Mass” of enough educated people to spark improvement?
But if we DO let them stay, their old country will NEVER improve!
So how do we solve that?
Robert actually anticipated and already countered this kind of argument:
“If Black people looked exactly like they do now but acted like Norwegians or Japanese people instead of how they do act, I do not think many people would hate them simply based upon the color of their skin or or the way they look.”
In short, if Blacks shape up, all this “racism”, i.e., treating them as dangerous children because that’s the way the BULK of the Black population has acted, would disappear.
HOWEVER, with Jackson, Sharpton, Elijah Muhammad, etc., encouraging them to act WORSE, racism will NEVER disappear! Look at the tantrums from Chicago to Minnesota to the various college campuses!
Instead of stamping out this bad behavior, America is by and large (attempting to) appeasing them, which is an Open Invitation to act WORSE! If we treat it as blackmail: Every bite is the last bite — until the next one, right? If we treat it as a spoiled brat, it needs a SPANKING, getting what it DESERVES, not what it DEMANDS!
PS, look at the Black Lies Matter rioters before you tell me that Blacks in America are not acting worse.
When was the last time whites rioted and burned down any town, village, or city? There has not been a white riot in America, since the 1800’s, if even then. If you consider what a bunch of idiot sports nuts have done as rioting, you need to go back to school. That is like comparing tigers and cats. Hint: Roy Horn was NOT mauled by a housecat!
to Phil: (in response to your recent reply to my first long comment)
“For example much of the stonework there predates the Bantu arrowhead that would be in those regions (which would’ve been the Sotho/Tswana rather than the Shona).
I do not believe this is accurate. Which stone work does this reference? The stone work (of the Zimbabwe monument) post post dates the first Bantu settlements/artifacts in the region. Early eastern Bantu cultures are associated with Urewe style of ceramics, which evolves in the lakes (Uganda.Rwanda region) by ca. 600 BC and branch off into descendant styles, reflection the migration of Bantu peoples to the South and East. Most Bantu languages of E. and Southern Africa (but not the Western part of C. Africa) have a common origin ultimately in the early E. Bantu speaking cultures of the great lakes.
The Matola culture exists in S.E Zimbabwe form the The Gokomere culture from about 400 ad in the Zimbabwe region (Which Huffman links to Nyasa languages and others to Sotho) is linked to early Zimbabwe phases. Various Bantu ethnolinguistic subgroups settled in the Limpopo region, some earlier than others. It is likely that the early Nyasa or another group predated the ancestral Shona (there and Shona cultural elements became more dominant over time.
Stone work existed at Mapungubwe (but lower and less impressive than Zimbabwe), which some believed influenced the Early Shona before. Mapungubwe needed walls less, being build on a high natural rock formation.
“Mapungubwe and Great Zimbabwe: The origin and spread of social complexity in southern Africa”
Thomas N. Huffman
“The Bodies found at those sights outside of Zimbabwe were mistakenly placed as Bantu when they were actually people who were mixed of Indonesians and Khoisan.”
This claim sounds very dubious. As far as I know the analyses that exist have found only Sub-Saharan affinities. I would be interested in a source giving evidence for this if one exists (but I would be surprised if it did). The degree of Khoisan affinity does seem to vary in the early peoples of the area. Some early analyses claimed to find a substantial Khoisan affinity in Gokomere sites. This would not be too surprising, as some Some Bantu groups in the area do have significant (minority) Khoisan admixture, generally highest in those groups whose ancestors settled earlier in Khoisan lands. Sothos and Twana are at the high end of the spectrum of Khoisan ancestry among Southern Af. Bantu groups.
“Even huts found their were to big for people like Bantu and were more likely those of Khoi like structure but with Asian influence.”
I’m not sure I understand this statement. Bantu peoples are in general not especially tall but vary. Though the the Khoisan are likely on average shorter, it seems strange that hut size would reflect the difference much. As mentioned some Bantu groups in Southern Africa have more Khoisan ancestry than others. Though a minority percent, it can be quite visible in Southern Africans, especially in the Sotho, Tswana and Xhosa. Hut remains found in early southern African herding/farming sites have been conical or round with evidence of mud walls (occasionally with rock foundations). These traits are all very common in the traditional huts of Zimbabwean tribes. Other forms also exist in Southern Africa.
“I honestly don’t think that anyone defending the Bantu Theory is incorrect, but I feel rather odd to believe that the structures would have UNIMPORTANT foreign influence especially when the Bantu made no structure with such material as well with them neighboring those who did…Feel free to prove Shiers wrong, I don’t feel much of a need to defend him, but I think it’s best to tackle his thesis from his own work. Perhaps you can give me some specific studies that prove the Bantu Thesis? BTW I’m familiar with Garlake, though the main argument he has is with the Portuguese witnessing Central African Bantus building one”
I do not think this is Garlake’s main argument. Far more important is for instance the clear native affinity of artifacts at the sites showing their origins in traditions of the Bantu diaspora (e. g. double metal gongs as symbols of kingship, which go back all the way to the earliest iron age sites of Gabon and the Congo near the Bantu homeland), and the lack of any non-African affinities in the material culture and traditions of the settlements. Foreign trade objects like exotic beads are found in some richer burials due to the aforementioned indirect trade routes leading to the Swahili coast. This basic observation was made made even by some Colonial-era investigators and is today repeatedly confirmed by the evidence:
“Examination of all the existing evidence, gathered from every quarter, still can produce not one single item that is not in accordance with the claim of Bantu origin and medieval date” (Gertrude Caton-Thompson, 1929)
The stone walled structures may be loosely based on the cattle kraal arrangement of Southern Bantu villages – settlements encircling one round enclosure to secure the important asset of cattle. Low stone walled enclosures appear at some S. Bantu Sites before the Zimbabwe structures like Banandyanalo, the predecessor of the Mabungubwe settlement. Enclosures marked the religious/mystical, and political-religious distinctions of elites while securing their wealth.
Different kinds of stratified, organized communities appear in the history of Bantu speaking cultures (to speak only of then) at different times. Two that come to mind – the Kisalian culture of Zaire (Jacques Nenquin…) and certain variants of the Urewe in W. Tanzania and Uganda (Peter Schmidt, Bernard Clist, Timothy P Denham…) The details this history are discussed in books covering African Historical Archaeology such as Graham Connah’s (in my first post).
or this one:
The Archaeology of Africa: Food, Metals and Towns
By Bassey Andah, Alex Okpoko, Thurstan Shaw, Paul Sinclair
Large earthworks enclosing settlements occur in the great lakes (Uganda, Burundi, etc.) – see the site called Bigo Mugenyi. Large enclosures were in the forest zone – they were usually of earth instead of stone for reasons of ecological practicality and availability. The superior farmland, mineral deposits, and relative lack of malaria are cited as factors in the relative complexity of Limpopo region cultures.
“..as well with them neighboring those who did.”
Round masonry enclosures close to in the style of Great Zimbabwe were not made by the nearest non-Africans (which I think you mean since none were close enough to be called neighboring) at the right times, nor evidence of the exotic changes (what we know of the) important aspects of culture that would have gone with those transfers.
Archaeological studies by researchers (for the general Zimbabwe area), some listed in my first post – Thomas Huffman, Pikrayi, Shadreck Chirikure etc. and Christopher Ehret – can often be found in full form online (by search). The evidence presented gives a sense of the evolution of Zimbabwe and associated cultures and their context in African archaeology/ethnohistory (though not all issues are understood/settled).
Debating Great Zimbabwe – University of Pretoria
Alright then, I’ll look at this when I can. To be honest it’s just that Shiers’ thesis was very comprehensive but I think it’s mainly because I rarely read actual books on archaeological theories as much as looking at articles online (the curse of being a millennial) but now that I reflect on the research it does seem rather questionable off his style not actually countering details of specific researchers of the Bantu thesis at least to my memeory.
Still, in terms of the style of Zimabawe’s architecture Shiers stated how it resembles the style of Sena Jews of Yemen, the people that mixed with Bantu there who are currently the Lemba of Southern Africa. The Gova (Khoi asians I was talking about) were secondary contributors by building other settlement like Khami and the Pit structure of Nyanga. Plus, in that area I believe, terrace farming was found in he South Africa region as well.
Nevertheless, lets say foreigners didn’t directly build the Stone structures, I still believe in a significant amount of Bantu Influence of the areas.
Sadly I can’t find anything online for you to read from Shiers at the moment.
Dude don’t beat yourself up, you are among the best race realist I’ve had the pleasure to meet. I also look for peaceful means of eugenics.
But considering all that is happening with Europe and America right now I understand how being emotional can be a result. The honesty of your post is indeed admirable and I have had a pleasure meeting you.
The truth of the matter is that from the begining of our post medieval/colonial relationship Europeans have never allowed Blacks to “act like Norwegians”. Blacks have been bared from education ( at pain of death or dismemberment ) in theWhites instituted Black Codes and J that Blacks have developed a culture that at large have a disdain for education. You have Black families that emphasizes education but they are in the minority and even then do not have all the ingrained cultural tools that facilitate educational excellence. Whites instituted Jim Crow apartheid laws immediately after slavery & have given Blacks nothing in the form of assistance after slavery. Blacks are the bi-product of the environment Whites have created. You place people into an dysfunctional environment you get dysfunctional people so now yes you have a people that perpetuate their own stagnation. One cant compare Blacks to an ethnic group who hasn’t had their language & culture stripped from them for 300plus yrs. A healthy culture protects one against an outside larger or mainstream culture that might seek to harm an individual or group of people deemed as outsiders. Racism is an extension of the “fear of the outsider ” dynamic thus it existed long before Blacks had an “attitude” or had high homicide rates (that are a result of others pumping guns & drugs into the ghettos ie: Iran/Contra) If Whites would like Blacks to change their attitudes & behavior creating robust educational & employment programs would do this with in a generation. But i doubt this would ever happen because to many Whites see Blacks as that other even in America & they fear Blacks rising to power & have little incentive to assist this rise. Gun sales skyrocketed after Obama’s election for a reason
I finally found a post a LONG time ago by Robert himself, that proves Blacks are the cause of their own problems and their IMMENSE hypocrisy:
“Blacks show up in the civilized, non-White society.
After a while, they begin engaging in mass uncivilized behavior, the most important of which is that they commit an utterly insane amount of crime.
Logically, police begin profiling them and whatnot.
Logically, police begin arresting an incredible number of Black criminals. Why? Because the Blacks are commiting a surreal amount of crime.
Because cops are arresting a huge portion of the Black population, inevitable excesses result.
Pretty soon, Blacks begin screaming about “police brutality!”
Police institute all sorts of sensitivity measures, but Blacks never stop screaming.
Because an absolutely insane amount of Blacks are being arrested and incarcerated, Blacks complain that “the system ain’t fair – it’s racist.”
Nowadays, it is probably not even all that true, with some exceptions for very racist areas like the South. In fact, there are studies that show that Blacks are LESS likely to be arrested for crimes and LESS likely to be convicted for the crimes they commit.
Blacks scream and yell that the system isn’t fair, is racist, bla bla. Even when Black juries convict Blacks, Black cops shoot Black criminals, somehow it all be racist and shit.
Black juries begin freeing obviously guilty Black criminals, Blacks periodically engage in mass urban riots due to “police brutality”.
This bullshit goes on forever with no end in sight, ever.
The whole stupid cycle is caused by one thing: Blacks committing a ridiculous amount of crime in the first place! This is what causes the whole mess.”
that post proves nothing. your conjecture “proves” nothing Its opinion based on limited facts and perspective. again your White elite started this fire and now you want to blame the people caught in it for acting erraticly ….you speak of :stopping the savage from rising” but seem not to have a clue in how your system really dioes this
If you want to say a healthy culture protects against outsiders, then why are you bitching about it?
YOU ARE THE THING WE MUST PROTECT AGAINST, HYPOCRITE!
Total over six conservative years:
White on Black: 0
Black on White: 135,206
Black on Black: 148,380
Now take a wild guess why we used to hang rapists out to dry.
These numbers are only possible because we STOPPED doing that.
With police increasingly neutered because Blacks pitching fits/riots when their thugs get punished, gun sales go up, because we have to protect ourselves!
The OFFICIAL line is that if a woman pisses herself, a rapist will lose interest. To me, that’s stupidity beyond cartoons.
Which do YOU think would stop a criminal better?
1.) A woman pissing herself.
2.) A rapist pissing itself at the sight of the gun.
3.) A rapist pissing itself after a bullet goes through the head it wasn’t thinking with?
wow you actually put those bullshite #’s up in 2013 alone 189 Blacks were murdered by Whites thats not counting murders by law enforcement. taking in consideration you bothered to post such biased #’s jun the 1st place I can’t even consider the rest of your diatribe as factual…fully opinionated racist rants.
If you want to bitch about the environment, BLACK environment is bad because of BLACK laziness, violence, and criminality. So YOU made your environment dysfunctional. Quit blaming it on whites.
My parents have pictures of Detroit, pre-Black takeover, and it looks like a nice place to live! I’ve run it through every filter I can think of, and so far it’s proven un-doctored. (It’s almost like Photoshop and similar retouching tech didn’t exist back then?)
As to educational programs, you yourself BRAGGED that Blacks have a “disdain” for education. The stats bear that out!
The national graduation rate for black males was 59 percent, 65 percent for Latinos, and 80 percent for white males for the 2012-13 school year, according to the report.
So what good would an education program do, if 41% would just leave it?
What about just educating the ones that APPRECIATE it, and protecting these gems from the scum that not only don’t want to act white, they want to hold all others back too?
What about a robust criminal-killing program? Then your “environment” would be less “dysfunctional”, right?
again those of your racial group are responsible for the dysfunction. People are not just naturally dysfunctional no matter who much your racist ego would like that to be so. Take some psyche courses and you’d might get an understanding of this
Job market discrimination
Cops find drugs and contraband in White car stops more so than Black even though Blacks are profiled and stopped more often i.e.: even with a racist policing system stopping more Blacks more illegal shite is found during White stops…racism illustrated at its best
Putting drugs into pour communities
Discrimination in education
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/13/school-discipline-race_n_4952322.html and this is today not taking in the historic discrimination that set all this dysfunction in place, Now today we do perpetuate it but like a good mechanic the racist elite tune it up every now and then..remember you said Whites are “stopping the savage from rising” well this is one way your racist elite do it
Yep, that’s what I was trying to argue before. The US government purposely put crack cocaine into black neighborhoods to oppress them. They want the black confined to a sadistic zoo that they cannot escape from, all in order to maintain the status quo.
yep to quote Nixon cabinet man John Ehrlichman
” Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar Left, and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black. But by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
and Nixon cabinet man HR Halderman quotes the president Nixon himself
“P emphasized that you have to face the fact that the whole problem is really the blacks. The key is to devise a system that recognizes this while not appearing to.”
this is the system we are in today & so many can’t or refuse to see it like Epgah…..Nixon & his cronies did a diabolically excellent job
It’s also true they probably manufactured AIDS to control the black population. A lot of these conservative types in government, though they deny it and keep it secret, are as much into eugenics as the commenter ep-gah.
lmao yeah herr epgah & sadly others actually believe the eugenics hype but dont realize the Nazi programs if the 30’s & 40’s probably are the reason the German birth rate is so low today. Being educated & rich doesn’t equal good genetic stock & if i plant premium seeds in shite soil you’ll get get shite plants & the owns that survive are only that much stronger. this is the Black man in the ghetto. surviving despite the odds.
i see these nutters advocating eugenics & im like wow theyed rather kill pill off than change the shite environment the people live in. eugenics proponents mostly fall into the behavioral traits & iq are hereditary camp. these are usually people who wish to negate the fact environment plays a huge role in behavior & iq & like epgah wish to blame environmental conditions of the victims of malignant environments. proper research reveals the government & the larger American society has instituted laws & cultural practices that oppress Afro Americans. one of the automatic responces to the long lasting systemic oppression Blacks suffer is the “attitude ” & “bad” behavior Robert has written about.
here is a good link why eugenics just wouldn’t work
as for aids we have precidents like the Tuskegee experiment that purposely gave Blacks syphilis & wetheld treatment from those alreadg infected for years
The movie “Cocaine Cowboys” showed that major drug dealers lived in Florida so long without any trouble for cops, mainly cause the cops were “in on it”. They were corrupt cops, even volunteering to carry the cocaine.
The US government only started fighting drugs after the drug thing got out of control.
I mean think about it. Why couldn’t the US government defeat some ragamuffin gang of drug pirates? They can smash Vietnam to smithereens but not those people?
A more scientific and patient poster than myself (I go by the raw numbers and ideals) named Phil had an idea how to stop Black violence:
“A POSSIBLE treatment procedure could be finding a method on how to remove old Serotonin or perhaps manipulation to genes for a better sequence or perhaps drugs similar to T drugs”
Would Blacks accept LEGAL mind-alterant substances instead of the illegal ones they currently consume in order to be good citizens? Or do they want to continue being criminals, and just not get punished for it?
Also, when Blacks do shit like this, why aren’t they kicked out of the way of lawful commerce? Or arrested for loitering, or ANY other punishment?
It’s bad enough you perpetrate your own stagnation, you try to drag US backwards!
Sad thing is, hundreds of thousands of new welfare recipients are flooding into the country and that means their benefits are going to go down because they need to be shared with the illegals. And any jobs that are left, well those will be given to foreigners. These BLM people are too stupid to see their own destruction on the horizon and it’s not coming from the cops or whitey.
And don’t forget scum like Abu-Jamal demanding healthcare for self-inflicted conditions WHILE ON DEATH ROW!
That is what Blacks do with power, and why it needs to be kept from them!
Funny, we had our problems, but it was never this bad before Obama
true and the problems lie in White racist attitudes. Most of the Whites supporting the 1% Trump are poor or middle class. Obama has created more jobs twice as many as Bush did http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/6/7/1391360/-Obama-has-created-six-times-as-many-jobs-as-Bush \
These are Obama’s overall #’s
Gas is cheaper than its been in a decade and the poor have free healthcare so you ask what are these poor White folk so mad about?. They rallied around Bush who plunged the US in debt and into a bullshite war..also the Republicans have followed a program of blocking Obama and the democrats regardless if the policies benefit America. The cost to our economy from Republican sabotage
Its a “Id rather die before letting the Black guy save me mentality”
Eugenics is sn answer arrived at an intelligent person who either us not privy to environmental causations or dismissess themall together. Eugenics might breed out or lower the occurance of undiserible physical traits but adpects of cognitive & behavioral trairs can only be effectively controled by contorling enviromental factors. again eugenics can effect cognitive & behavioral abnormalities such as biologically based cognitive impairment & mental disorders but until you adjust any research in this area for enviromental factors your results will be inaccuarte. propert research reveals the government & the larger American society has instituted laws & cultural practices that oppress Afro Americans. one of the automatic responces to the long lasting systemic oppression Blacks suffer is the “attitude ” & “bad” behavior Robert has written about. systemic racism & discrimination are environmental factors
here is a good link why eugenics just wouldn’t work.
Searching Michael Levin’s work is useful to show that so much is genetic. Posts have been made here about the 14 point iq drop since Victorian times, and other results of entropy. A case for eugenics is made here: http://www.eugenics.net/papers/caseforeugenics.html
for the Victorian stuff: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289614000841
The rest of the stuff has been dealt with ad nauseam. A useful blog dealing with these issues is here: http://humanvarieties.org/, a useful text is here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780080437934
excuse my typos…..its late & John Carter of Mars is on
I see alot of eugenics proponents on this thread far to many to address adequately so ill just post here.
We all have heard moral arguments against eugenics but heres a scientific one
Many who dont understand genetics or evolutionary biology are quick to use dogs as an example of successful eugenics but the above link & qoute below addresses why its scientifically invalid as well
“humans aren’t dogs. In fact, almost no animal is a dog when it comes to its genetic plasticity. Everything about them makes them more practically suited to selective breeding. In canine DNA are specific sequences known as SINEC_Cf elements. These are sequences of DNA that are especially prone to wandering, whole from one part of the DNA strand to another. In dogs, they often insert themselves into stretches that act as regulatory agents on processes, vastly but for the most part safely changing the expression of genes. Dogs have about 11,000 of these sequences, and they go back to their wolf ancestors. Humans have less than one thousand”
also nature knows best & doesn’t make an inferior organism genetically dominant ie: brown eyes vs blue…etc etc
as i previously posted
they didn’t have iq test in Victorian time & are you familiar with the flyn effect? iq has risen amongst all groups an averge of 30 pts since iq test were 1st implemented early in the 20th century
quote: ” Over the past century, the average IQ in industrialized countries has risen to keep pace with the complexity of modern life. IQ researcher James Flynn discusses why those gains have occurred and whether they are likely to continue”
to add the link you provided assumes iq is largely heratible & the fact is that this is not known. these are links to just a few academic studies that argue the high importance of environment in iq & behavioral development in general.
“Highlighting the insights of Kurt Lewin more than 70 years after his work, the researchers found that socioeconomic background had a major impact on genetic influences on intelligence: More specifically, when twins were reared in high socioeconomic status environments, genes accounted for approximately 72% of variance in intelligence scores between twins. When reared in low socioeconomic status environments, genes accounted for only about 8% of variance in intelligence within the twin pairs.”
By making this flawed assumtion the conclusions in Mary Van Court’s paper are suspect. Like beging an equation with the wrong number or formula her premise leads to a flawed conclusion.
I grew up in a drug & gang infested housing project. only my family environment saved me from a life of ignorance nether the less I had to study admist gun shots,fighting,loud arguments & a myriad of distractions my White & Asian honors class college prep counter parts did not. Its a bit aggravating to constly see intelligent Anglos dismiss environmental factors so readily.
ill digest these links but as for the Victorian stuff i see here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2323944/Were-Victorians-cleverer-Research-indicates-decline-brainpower-reflex-speed.html
the reason for this attested decline is “reverse” natural selection. …i think eugenics falls under reverse or un nature selection & these stats are not race specific there from studies of primarily Anglo populations from the US & UK. it is interesting though. this study & the flyn effect seem to contradict each other but we know very concretely the flyn effect exist
Ok I agree the subject as a whole has been discussed to ad nauseum (not delt with because your assuming those arguments resolve the issue) actually those links do not adress my argument rather as ive stated they negate to consider environmental effects on iq score. Before you apparently rule something out you must prove it has no effect on the subject of study. Those links point to genetic correlations but do not address or rule out possible environmental stimuli. To be clear what im saying is these eugenics & racial iq heritability arguments do not consider the environment as a possible causation of lower academic achievement thus is an incomplete study of the IQ disparity phenomenon. Environment consists of living habitats,family dynamics,cultural dynamics and the effects of the larger society people live in.
As for the Victorian study. Ive found a study by Stanford Universities Gerald Crabtree that takes the were getting dumber than our ancestors even further but rather pointing to Victorian ere Europeans he points to ancient Africans as possessing humanities peaking point of intelligence
“In a two-part paper published in the journal Trends in Genetics, Stanford University researcher Gerald Crabtree suggests that evolution is, in fact, making us dumber — and that human intelligence may have actually peaked before our hunter-gatherer predecessors left Africa.”
This reminds me of my own theory that the same mental efforts are used in tribal societies as used by a San Francisco techie hipster but simply expressed differently(but later for that) What Crabtree study does show is that at the very least the argument is not resolved much less having been resolved by the Victorian reaction time study. In fact that study has its detractors
“The claims by the European team will undoubtedly be viewed as controversial—after all, no one has proved that reaction times truly are an accurate measure of intelligence. Nor does the data suggest that those researchers testing people for their reaction times chose their subjects at random, or even in fact, performed the tests in the same way as everyone else. There’s also the consideration of the Flynn effect, where other researchers have found average intelligence levels rising since the WW II.”
The Victorian study uses reaction time to deduce iq scores of people who never had even heard of an iq test much less had taking one. The test methods are problematic as explained above.
This is why i said eugenics is an answer arrived at by intelligent people who simply dont have all the information they need to actually prove the validity of using eugenics to cull the herd for better intellectual stock. Iq is a cognitive thing subject to much more stimulus than say a bicep or thigh muscles. You can cull all the lower iq people & just have those with high IQ. Youd find more of those with lower IQ’s will hail from poorer environments & the higher IQ clients more than likely would posses all the manners & intellectual faculties desired but it wouldn’t be an accomplishment of genetics rather you’d have a group of people from a richer environment peforming better more so due to their positive stimuli than genetic heredity. To wrap what im saying up is this. To get a true answer to what developes IQ be it low or high you have to take in & measure all the variables. That is unless your looking to prove a preconceived notion about a cultural, ethnic or racial group. If thats the case i guess your doing the right thing ignoring what at least is the other contributing half to our cognitive (thus IQ) make up