More Out of India Idiocy

This is the latest nonsense out of India purporting to undo the Aryan Migration Theory. It is written by high caste Hindu idiots for political reasons, namely to swipe back at South Indians and Dalits who claim that Aryans imposed caste Hinduism on them at the point of a sword. The fact is that South Indians misrepresent the case. The Aryans did not sweep into Northwest India, conquer the Dravidians, and push them south. The Aryans conquered in the north, and they bred in with and mixed with the locals. In time, caste Hinduism spread to the south of India.
Michael Witzel is probably the pre-eminent scholar of Sanskrit and the Aryan Migration question. Here is his response to this irresponsible study, which unfortunately was published in a peer reviewed journal. Briefly, the India Today piece completely misrepresents the study and the authors of the study also make many other misrepresentations of the data. I am afraid that this is the way Indians do science, just like they do everything else – with massive corruption and political overtones. As more and more Indians get into science, we can count on science becoming more and more corrupt and less and less scientific.
I asked Prof. M. Witzel about a popular news item in Indian English press.
Here is his reply.
Happy Holidays!
N. Ganesan
From Michael Witzel answering my question.
Well, Ganesan, I have answered that, based on my genetic etc. background info and info from my geneticist friends [who include Thangaraj, Pitchappan 🙂 ] — but this msg. has not appeared on IDDOLOGY@yahooo yet, where this “news” was broadcast a few days earlier

Here a copy:
The INDIA TODAY article (below) bristles with misrepresentations and outright misinformation, in part by the authors of the genetic study mentioned here:
On Dec 11, 2011, at 7:19 PM, Sri Venkat wrote:
> Dinesh C. Sharma New Delhi, December 10, 2011 | UPDATED 10:22 IST
> Indians are not descendants of Aryans, says new study.
> <>
Briefly, it is well known that “The origin of genetic diversity found in South Asia is much older than 3,500 years when the Indo-Aryans were supposed to have migrated to India”. Geneticists point to the Out of Africa movement around 65-75,000 years ago. As a result, Reich et al. have shown that two ancient population segments evolved in South Asia around 40 kya, the ‘Ancestral North Indians’ (ANI), (genetically close to Middle Easterners, Central Asians, and Europeans) and the ‘Ancestral South Indians’. Add another, Neolithic migration from the Greater Near East some 10,000 y.a.
Then, it is usually said that “migration of Indo-European speakers from Central Asia 
 was responsible for the introduction of the Indo-European language family.” Indeed. Indo-Aryan language, religion, etc. have been imported from the Ural steppes/Central Asia. Note the many *early*, pre-Vedic loan-words into *early* Uralic language, and now also loans from the Bactria-Margiana culture (2400-1600 BCE) into Indo-Aryan. By people with one or another genetic set-up (see below on R1a).
The rest of the so-called “Aryan Invasion” is an outdated 19th century theory, just as the early 19th c. one that imagined Indo-Europeans migrated out of India (as some Hindutvavadins now reassert!). There was indeed a movement northward out of South Asia/Greater Near East during the warm period around c.40,000 y.a., but that is some 38,000 years BEFORE Indo-Aryans even came into existence. (Same mistake made in the 2005 CA schoolbook fiasco!)
> “Our study clearly shows that there was no genetic influx 3,500 years ago,” said Dr Kumarasamy Thangaraj.
Absolute genetic dates (just as in linguistic reconstructions) need to be supported by outside evidence, such as finds of skeletons. For the period around 1500 BCE, we still have error bars of 3000 years in genetic reconstructions, which makes pronouncements about a non-existent “Aryan” move into South Asia very moot indeed.
We will have to await the further, so far very uncertain resolution of the early Y chromosome R1a haplogroup (c. some 20-34,000 years old), to form an opinion. Ra1 has been attributed to speakers of Indo-European (as it is prominent in Eastern Europe), but it also occurs throughout South Asia, tribal populations included. We need to know which one of its unresolved sub-strains moved, when and where. We do not know that…yet.
When L. Singh says, “It is high time we re-write India’s prehistory based on scientific evidence,” we can only agree.
However, not when he says, “There is no genetic evidence that Indo-Aryans invaded or migrated to India or even something such as Aryans existed”.
Dr Singh does not understand that Indo-Aryan language (and religion) simply could not exist in thin air. You need a population. Obviously they had Ural area ancestors, whatever their genetic set-up upon entering from Afghanistan.
Even his assertion, “If any migration from Central Asia to South Asia took place, it should have introduced apparent signals of East Asian ancestry into India” is patently wrong as Eastern elements entered Central Asia only much later.
For further details see my recent message to the IER list.
Sequel to my last, general comment:
1. First of all, it is rather unfortunate that the authors of the paper have highlighted the “Aryan Invasion Theory” in their summary and later on as well. That is 19th century talk!
Since at least the 1950s (FBJ Kuiper 1955, Przyluski even in 1920s, etc.), Indologists have stressed the complex interactions between Indo-Aryan speakers and local speakers both in the Greater Panjab and beyond, from the oldest text (Rgveda, c. 1200-1000 BCE) onward, which has some clear non-IA poets and kings. The great, late Kuiper’s last paper (2000) has the title a “bilingual poet”.
Since 1995, I too have written about acculturation, and that maybe “not one gene” of the Ural steppes people had survived by the time the pastoral Indo-Aryan speakers arrived in the Greater Panjab (via the Central Asian river pastures/Tienshan/Pamir meadows, the BMAC, Hindukush, etc., with many chances for gene flow from all these areas).
That Indo-Aryan language, religion, ritual etc. have been imported from the Urals/Central Asia (note the *early* loan-words into Uralic, and now also BMAC loans words into Indo-Aryan!) is beyond any reasonable doubt. By people with one or another genetic set up, — which one that is the question.
I will await the further resolution of the Y chromosome haplogroup Ra1* –note the “western” affinities in the paper of Brahmins and Ksatriyas even in U.P. — as to see exactly which genetic strain may have entered South Asia around 1500 BCE, — if any.
2. Co-author Lalji Singh says as per the article in DNA :
“We have conclusively proved that there never existed any Aryans or Dravidians in the Indian sub continent. The Aryan-Dravidian classification was nothing but a misinformation campaign carried out by people with vested interests,” Prof Lalji Singh, vice-chancellor, Banaras Hindu University, told DNA.”
Again harking back to *supposed* British interests in the 19th century. But, the two language groups definitely are as separate as they are from Bantu, Chinese or Papua. Indo-Aryan is definitely not = Dravidian language or its original culture, just as little as Basque, Uralic are not Indo-European. Confusion of language, genes, ethnicity, etc.
Well, Lalji has stayed at Hyderabad for a long time. Did he ever try to speak Hindi/Urdu to native, mono-lingual Kannada speakers? He would had have as little luck as I would have with any Indo-European language in Estonia, Finland or Hungary.
Why does he have to comment about things (language, culture) that he does not understand?
““The study effectively puts to rest the argument that south Indians are Dravidians and were driven to the peninsula by Aryans who invaded North India,” said Prof Singh, a molecular biologist and former chief of Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad.”
Same mistake. Of course, South Indians are Dravidian speaking. And they even are genetically (ASI) different from North Indians (ANI), which this co-author should know from his own (and D. Reich’s) paper. Same confusion of genetics, language, ethnicity (“race”)…
The idea of Aryans “driving Dravidians’ South”, too, is 19th century talk. See above. The reality is much more complex. For example, Frank Southworth has shown that Maharashtra was Dravidian speaking well into the Middle Ages, and Gujarat too has Drav. place names. There was a lot of give and take between the two language families, as is seen in the many Dravidian loans in Sanskrit, etc. and the many Indo-Aryan loans in Drav. languages.
3. Unfortunately, as some years earlier before, Gyaneshwer Chaubey chimes in: “According to Dr Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Estonian Biocentre, Tartu, Estonia, who was another Indian member of the team, the leaders of Dravidian political parties may have to find another answer for their raison d’ĂȘtre.”
A clear, political statement based on wrong science: see immediately below. By Dravidian parties he means those restricted to Tamil Nadu. Well, Karnataka, Kerala and Andhra too speak Dravidian, as do many tribes in Central India (Gonds, etc.)
“We have proved that people all over India have common genetic traits and origin. All Indians have the same DNA structure. No foreign genes or DNA has entered the Indian mainstream in the last 60,000 years,” Dr Chaubey said.”
Sorry, *all Indians* with the same DNA structure? Their own paper says differently. He could also say that all ex-Africa populations have the same genetic origin…
And no “foreign” genes? What about all these Persians, Greek/Macedonians, Saka, Kushana, Huns, Arabs 711 CE+, Muslim Turks (1000+, 1200 CE+), Mughals, Afghans 1700 CE, Portuguese, etc., British
.? Sure, they all never had Indian wives

“Dr Chaubey had proved in 2009 itself that the Aryan invasion theory is bunkum. “That was based on low resolution genetic markers. This time we have used autosomes, which means all major 23 chromosomes, for our studies. The decoding of human genome and other advances in this area help us in unraveling the ancestry in 60,000 years,” he explained.”
I hope he will learn to distinguish between the Out Of Africa migration, the Neolithic one from western Asia around 10,000 y.a. (detailed in this very paper!), and the trickling in of Indo-Aryan pastoral speakers c.1500 BCE??
4. Said geneticists *still* cannot distinguish between speakers of a particular language and their genes. Writing in English — are Lalji Singh and Gyaneshwer both Anglo-Saxons? Or me, for that matter?
It is one thing to explain genetic results to the gullible public, but to confuse them with wrong data from linguistics, archaeology etc. is despicable.
5. “According to Prof Singh, Dr Chaubey, and Dr Kumarasamy Thangaraj, another member of the team, the findings disprove the caste theory prevailing in India.”
“Interestingly, the team found that instead of Aryan invasion, it was Indians who moved from the subcontinent to Europe. “That’s the reason behind the findings of the same genetic traits in Eurasiain regions,” said Dr Thangaraj, senior scientist, CCMB.
Well, as detailed in my last note, the well-known northward movement into N. Eurasia from South Asia during the warm period around 40,000 years ago, has NOTHING to do with the 19th century’s “Aryan Invasion,” dated around 1500 BCE! I suppose they can count and calculate?
6. Finally, the unavoidable dot on the i, from the ubiquitous Dr K., — who has nothing to do with this genetic paper or topic. Bad choice by the DNA newspaper!
“Africans came to India through Central Asia during 80,000 to 60,000 BCE and they moved to Europe sometime around 30,000 BCE. The Indian Vedic literature and the epics are all silent about the Aryan-Dravidian conflict,” said Dr S Kalyanaraman, a proponent of the Saraswathi civilization which developed along the banks of the now defunct River Saraswathi.”
Through Central Asia?? There is no evidence at all for this, neither archaeologically or otherwise. Central Asia — deserts and all — was settled, pace Wells, only much later. Dr K. is not up to date: Rumania was reached
already by 42 kya…
As for “Vedic literature and the epics are all silent about the Aryan-Dravidian conflict”, he should re-read the Rgveda (in Sanskrit), not the outdated 100 year old English translation of Griffith. The non-Indo-Aryan speaking populations there (Dasyu, Daasa) clearly are in conflict with Indo-Aryan speakers

Finally, having studied *administration* (PhD Manila), he is not up to date on archaeology either. The Harappan civilization developed in the Piedmont west of the subcontinent (see books by the late G. Possehl) and it spread eastward, also to the Ghagghar-Hakra river, which Dr K anachronistically calls, in Hindutva fashion, Sarasvati — well before the river got its Vedic name, c.1200 BCE.
In sum: for all discussants: as the old proverb has it, “shoemaker, stick to your own tools”!
‘nough said.
On Dec 11, 2011, at 11:50 AM, Michael Witzel wrote:
> This paper  has been out for a few days, and I got a copy from a co-author, one of my Estonian friends.
> I have immediately protested to them and have also critiqued the comments published by DNA. Note that the latter comments are attributed just to three (not all!) Indian co-authors, but do not come from the slew of other authors. The reason, as usual, seems to be politics and notoriety (to attract more finances?)
> To set the record straight, a few general remarks first:
> 1. There is nothing new in the result about an early Out of Africa movement (to South Asia) of *anatomically modern humans* (not Neanderthals, Denisovans, Homo Erectus) at c. 65-75 kya. There are some hints about earlier dates but they are based on debatable stone artifacts, not skeletons.
> 2. And we also knew well about the movements from there to northern Eurasian areas during the warm period around c. 40,000 BCE: archaeologically attested by skeletons, both in the Beijing area (Zhoukoudian c.40 kya, via S.E. Asia), and in Europa (Rumania, c. 42 kya).
> See my friend Peter Underhill (Stanford) et al. 2010 paper:
> 3. Obviously this early movement has nothing to do with the current Hindutvavadin theory of an “Out Of India” move of the Indo-Europeans, who would have settled Europe: that would be tens of thousands of years later. (The same mistake was made during the CA schoolbook affair 
 by a CA biologist! They never learn…)
> For a popular overview with maps see St. Oppenheimer’s website  or that of the National Geographic.
> Around 40,000 BCE there were neither “Aryans” nor Indo-Europeans around, not even speakers of the giant Nostratic language family, at best of the still earlier hypothetical Borean super-language family, proposed by my friend, the Africanist Harold Fleming (see WIKI). Likewise, no Dravidian language family yet, which may in fact be part of Nostratic anyhow.
> This northward move is a general phenomenon, as is the subsequent severe contraction southward during the last Ice age around 20 kya, when the four or five major human types (not “races”) developed in isolation: Europe, S.Asia, (Sunda Land: S.E. Asia), E. Asia, Sahul Land (New Guinea-Australia), — for example with two separate, independent mutations producing white skin color in Europe and in East Asia.
> 3. The paper by my Boston geneticist friend David Reich et al. has shown that South Asia has two ancient population segments evolving from the early Out of Africa people around 40 kya, the ‘Ancestral North Indians’ (ANI), (genetically close to Middle Easterners, Central Asians, and Europeans) and the ‘Ancestral South Indians’ (ASI), so named after I had cautioned him and Nick Patterson about the political danger involving the naming of these groups. As you can see, even this nomenclature did not help to dispel preconceived Hindutva bias about “Aryans” and Dravidians.
> At 40 kya there were no “Aryans” and no “Dravidians” around yet.
> 4. If we then want to speak about “Aryans” (more correctly: speakers of Indo-Aryan language) and speakers of the early Dravidian language at all, we first of all have to disconnect language from ethnicity or “race”. I am not an Anglo-Saxon, just because I speak and write in English here, nor are Chaubey, Singh and Thangaraj.
> Language can change within 2 generations, as all Americans know and as Indians *should* know: not just in large cities, but also in tribal areas where people take over the dominant regional language, for obvious social reasons.
> The 3 Indian geneticists quote by DNA confuse language use with genetic setup, ethnicity, culture, religion etc. All of them easily (and *mutually*) transgress genetic boundaries.
> 5. If when then speak about Indo-Aryans or Dravidians at c. 3500 years ago, and want to link them with genetic data, we must take into account that all these studies are based on modern DNA, and depend on *assumed* mutation rates (going back to the Chimpazee-Human split of 5-7 million years ago); the genetic results thus provide good *relative* dates, but not absolute dates.
> Absolute dates (just as in linguistic reconstructions) need to be supported by outside evidence, such as finds of skeletons of anatomically modern humans, as mentioned above. (By the way these are earlier at Lake Mungo in Australia at c. 50 kya and Europe/China than in South Asia, where they only appear in Sri Lanka at c.30 kya. Facetiously: an Out of Australia migration to Eurasia?)
> 6. Worse, there are huge error bars in all these models. It may not matter very much if we have error bars of some 10,000 years for the Out of Africa move, but for the period around 1500 BCE, we still have error bars of 3000 years, which makes all pronouncements about a non-existent “Aryan” move into South Asia, based on current genetic data, very moot indeed.
> The “Western Asian/Central Asian” strain in northern India/Pakistan (as per this paper by Metspalu et al.) may well be due to Persian, Greek/Makedonian, Saka, Kushana, Hun, Arab (711 CE+), Islamic Turks 1000 CE/1200 CE, Portuguese etc. (1500 CE+) or British gene influx.
> I will await the further, so far very uncertain resolution of the Y chromosome R1a haplogroup to form an opinion. Ra1a has been attributed to speakers of Indo-European (as it is prominent in Eastern Europe) but it also occurs throughout South Asia, tribal populations included. We need to know which sub-strain moved: when and where.
> 7. All of which leaves most of the comments by Singh, Thangaraj and Chaubey high and dry. More about them in my next message.
> An interesting weekend, apparently. Luckily, the semester is over…
> Cheers,
> Michael
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44 thoughts on “More Out of India Idiocy”

    1. Sure they are mixed race. Where did the Caucasoid come from!? It came from the steppes, the only place it could have come from. Prior most Indians were heavily Australoid.
      Why do NW Indians look so Caucasoid? Why do they look so much like Pakistanis, Tajiks, Afghans and Iranians? Because they are from the same stock. That Caucasoid did not materialize out of nowhere.

      1. If you examine the genetic composition of Modern Day Turks, most of them have their lineage from Greeks, most Turks don’t like it but genetic studies prove that Majority of Turks share most of their Mitochondrial DNA with Turks.
        Now after Ottoman Empire ,Its not possible to identify who is original Turk or pure Turk as such species doesn’t exist
        But these Turkmen are Central Asian Mongoloids and surely they looked Different when their King Genghis khan Raided Asia minor.
        Problem with these Indians doing scientific study is that they use it to for their political or religious agenda and to push their Con Game, and use all gimmicks to cover up their agenda
        Like this deepak Chopra who Bullshits his way through, adds some science mumbo jumbo and makes money by selling Cow urine Indian medicine to gullible Americans who believe in fake Hindu spirituality
        any idiot who looks at Tamils, Andaman people or Adivasis and compares them with northeastern people and calls them same is doing it for his political agenda, The differences even exist among Upper and lower castes
        Hindutva propaganda has entered into mainstream discourse , sadly media,academia and even Scholars are propagating same nonsense
        Hindutva’s agenda is to unite Hindus under false pretense and to launch a Pogrom against Muslims and minorities in India
        This is why I always feel that Indians will eventually corrupt academia and sciences, they detest rational, objective thinkers in western world.
        Problem with Indians is that they couldn’t compete nor they can create something, when ever they are cornered they become angry, bully others.
        But when they are exposed completely they resort to boot-licking and pleasing Western scientists
        Indians have more insidious agenda, Islamic Fundamentalists are easy to catch, they shout shariah law and mostly they are morons.
        Indians are very crafty and cunning in everything they do. You can’t even guess when they will stab you without slightest remorse

      2. Hindutva elements are hell bent on proving caste system is something British used to divide and conquer.
        Their long term goals are far more insidious, Some Hindu supremacists have claimed that , they would like to strip all Voting rights to Muslims and Christians as these people are genetically Hindus but practice Judeo.Christian religion.
        Some even want to give them secondary citizen status and impose reverse tax , some have even claimed in Recent campaign to launch pogroms against Muslims…
        I have said this many times, Hindutva needs useful idiots, Mostly Dalit lower caste useful idiots to serve their agenda….but current Caste,regional divisions have created a greater chasm in Indian life.
        Instead of understanding Diversity of south Asia and bridge this Gap(Inequality political, Economic, Academic Circles),they are playing with Nationalism and pseudo science, trust me this will inflict far more serious damage in south Asia.
        Hindus never had power in past, and when they had it, they squandered it with arrogance, greed and Caste politics.
        Seems we Indians did not learn any thing from Vijayanagara rule, kakatiya rule or pandya, gaekwad,Rajput Dynasty rule.
        Hindus lost to nomadic Arabs because they stabbed each other for gaining political and Economic mileage
        Many Scholars have underestimated Hindu insecurity, I strongly feel next fascist Government will emerge in Hindu heartland not china.

    1. They are extremely annoying! They keep coming to the site spamming it with their bullshit saying there was no Aryan Migration into India. It’s anti-scientific crap, and it is annoying as fuck-all.

    2. They are far more dangerous to West than Islamic Fanatics who live on welfare, at least islamic fanatics can be easily identified , hindus are far more crafty
      They are slimy,they push their agenda, they are even patient, they will wait for 20 years to infiltrate into mainstream politics and academic,Scientific discourse and pollute it or use to to extend their political agenda
      Indians ,especially top echelons are very power hungry, they will resort every trick under the sun to corrupt entire system.
      India is a shithole ,because many Indians are incompetent at the same time arrogant.
      In the long run i feel indians will inflict more damage to US than islamic fanatics.
      Indians are already destroying middle class jobs in silicon valley,Scheming one Venture capitalist after other with their useless software con artistry and worse they use these Con software Companies as front door ,to enter USA and obtain green card.
      Indians dont need to work hard nor they have to build anything, White man already did it, they can simply kick off all Intelligent white people and shame Next generation as drug addicts or college drop outs/Bastardized sons of single mothers, stop their progress in academic, Professional world by hiring fellow indians instead of americans
      Indians are already doing it–You can see mainstream Agenda–They have created a PR that indians are “Best and Brightest” and American is not producing Enough STEM graduates to match industrial needs, its a lie,USA has many prestigious Universities and research is Top class, and America Produces more skilled people than India.
      India are millions of unemployable useless ,Drug addict generation, neither indian government is able to feed them nor they can be employed anywhere as they dont posses any substantial skills,so india is dumping them on West, India is ready to sell all its resources for Liberal Visa policy.
      All they care is FOREX reserves and how many useless “indiots” they can dump on Western nations,and play “Race-Card” to push the agenda.
      Indians today know it very well, that they are facing last onslaught of intellectual White People,Next generation will not as Good as current one, and all these indians have to do is to wait for their opportune movement to push their political agenda onto your throats and eventually take over almost everything or run their con artistry from behind the curtain.

  1. Dear Robert,I am an Indian,I love your blog,I think you should just ignore the trolls and stop writing about casteism.I can feel that you truly desire to fix India so why not write more about the internal flaws like administration,psychology,religious beliefs etc.?

      1. Casteism is a 3000 year old fabric worn by every South Asian,Today it has become institutionalized and part of culture, if you leave Caste, you are ignoring elephant in the room.
        No matter how many trolls get upset or resort to Hindutva PR lies, They cannot change the reality nor they can envision anything close to western civilization.
        Sheer jealousy,hatred and denial will never alter the truth,

  2. Yeah that’s crap. They said that Indians went to Europe and spread Indo-European languages to Europe! European Whites are really Indians! What a crock.
    And all Indians are the same. Right! There are no foreign genes in Indians. All Indian genes are indigenous.
    “On the other hand, they are vicious racists, calling for the genocide of Caucasians, the mass sterilization of blacks, and the annihilation of the Chinese.”
    Do they really do this? Say kill all the Whites? Sterilize all the Blacks? Kill all the Chinese?

  3. Jeez, what a bunch of shitballs.
    I always thought Hindus were a-ok until a met a few of them on the Internet. After talking to the guy for a long time, I realized that he was profoundly disturbed. His head was fucked in the worst way imaginable. He was a Brahmin. Then I met another one, and this guy was even worse. That guy was a Brahmin too. Both of them were frankly insane. Then I realized that almost all high caste Hindus are exactly like this. Then I started digging a lot deeper. This Hindus seem just fine until you really get to know them! Nasty fuckers!

  4. do no insult the hindu. we are the next rulers of the christainty and western dogs. hindu is the only true. not like the gay religion of the west. have you seen what your mother and sister are doing in the church. gay christains

  5. Have you ever seen a Indian Albino? North Indians are not a hybrid race of europeans and Dravidians, they are simply, like the blond haired, dark skinned, aboriginals of Australia or the tribes of papua new guinea, exhibiting genetic mutations in melanin production. Doesn’t make them related to europeans or their offspring. Maybe people who keep pushing for this should grasp that ‘white’ people are simply people who cannot produce melanin in high quantities. When melanin is taken away from the skin, hair and eyes, you get skin devoid of melanin, not white skin, but skin very much like thin nails looking pinkish because of the visible blood underneath. Eyes which appear to have different colors are caused by scattered light now possible as there is less melanin to absorb the light. Hair follicles devoid of melanin appear ‘yellow’ but is merely what hair follicles would look like devoid of melanin, the same thing happens when going gray. All these things are caused by a genetic mutation not race mixing.
    Indians are not related to europeans. Stop pushing this crap.
    Despite uneducated people who pose as crusaders for truth while pushing white power memes all over the internet, Indians are the only Aryans, there is no such thing as a European or white Aryan. There has never been a people anywhere outside of India or eastern Persia That has ever called themselves Aryans. Thats a fact. Thats the real world. Stick to ripping off the jewish religion and culture and please stay away from mine.
    The Aryan invasion theory or Out of India theory, or out of central asia theory are theories born out a linguistics theory. Linguistics is not a science. It is not a fact, it cannot offer dates or timelines, it is based on educated guesses.
    But if we look at the other methods we use to trace history, like genetics
    or physical archeology.
    1. There is zero genetic evidence for a hybrid race in North India made up of Europeans and Dravidians. Indians are ancestral to Europeans, just like Africans are ancestral to Indians. While we may share the same ‘race’ we are not the same people. Europeans came after. While the R1a gene clearly shows an out of India movement correlating to the introduction of Indo-european languages, there is nothing showing the reverse.
    2. The Archeological record shows that no Indian cities were ever raided or burned during the Indus valley period, all cities were abandoned due to rivers drying up. All studies conducted so far show continuity in settlements. But the archeological record of invasions for Europe are very clear, chariot users sacking settlement after settlement in eastern europe. The Etruscans and the greeks invading from Anatolia and crushing the local settlements.
    Even the European mythologies reflect this, from Zeus crushing the white clay men or titans to the invasions of Ireland by the Siddhe or the war between the Vanir and the Aesir.
    Hide from it all you want but a people who consistently appropriate foreign cultures like the europeans are obviously going to have a complex about origin and purity. This site is a clearer demonstration of willful ignorance, it is not really surprising that you people push creationism while a statue of Nata-raja stands outside cern.

    1. All right, Hindu worm, I am banning you. Indians are related in part to Europeans, or Indo-Europeans. The same stock populated both regions. In India they mixed with native Dravidians. Europe was not populated from India, thank God! If it was, it would have been a shit-tarded polluted ruined mess just like everything a Hindu touches. The only Indians that populated Europe are Gypsies! Gypsies! Gypsies are typical Hindu-type people, very low, depraved and nearly worthless. They are hated by almost all White Europeans for very good reason.
      The Aryan Migration into India is a real thing. It brought language, culture, religion and even some genes. Your entire Dharmic Hindu culture came from outside of India, from the steppes of Central Asia, 3,500. Get used to it Hindu dog!
      PS I am banning you, worm. And I will ceaselessly propagandize against you and your sick ilk to try to get people to hate you and your depraved kind so we can maybe keep you from polluting our Western countries with your twisted people.

      1. No Lindsay, OIT theory is 100 % true and it has been scientifically proved and your western twisted minds find it hard to accept that you evolved from us so you lowlifes conjure some unknown facts and call it as a theory. Max Mueller was a crap dog who wrote that garbage for the bones he received from the british.
        You fucking sterilized bastards’ minds finds it hard to fathom our superiority level. I’m yet to see a concrete answer from you with respect to disprove the marks my fellow indian commenters regarding AIT and OIT theory. All your responses have been banning people who opposed your narcissistic view and scribbling nonsense like yadda yadda. Now you also changed your tune from Aryan Invasion to Aryan migration god knows what you will change it to next which proves your bigotry. Because of this bigotry, you guys are treated as untouchables and we wont allow you to step inside our precious temples. No we look you down even low than the gypsies and aborigines, for us a foreigner is a foreigner no matter he is a white or a nigger. Instead of living a life like this, take a niggers dick and shove it up your ass bastard.

      2. No Lindsay, OIT theory is 100 % true and it has been scientifically proved and your western twisted minds find it hard to accept that you evolved from us so you lowlifes conjure some unknown facts and call it as a theory. Max Mueller was a crap dog who wrote that garbage for the bones he received from the british.
        You fucking sterilized dogs’ minds finds it hard to fathom our superiority level. I’m yet to see a concrete answer from you with respect to disprove the marks my fellow indian commenters regarding AIT and OIT theory. All your responses have been banning people who opposed your narcissistic view and scribbling nonsense like yadda yadda. Now you also changed your tune from Aryan Invasion to Aryan migration god knows what you will change it to next which proves your bigotry. Because of this bigotry, you guys are treated as untouchables and we wont allow you to step inside our precious temples. No we look you down even low than the gypsies and aborigines, for us a foreigner is a foreigner no matter he is a white or a nigger. Instead of living a life like this, take a niggers dick and shove it up your ass you stray pig!!!

        1. All right you Hindu worm, I am banning you.
          Out of India theory is not proven, in fact, it is regarded as a ludicrous joke. Only worthless Hindus and a few fellow travelers believe in this nonsense. All the rest of the scientific world laughs about it. The Journal of Indo-European Studies had to set aside peer review in order to devote an issue to OIT because it never would have passed peer review. It was the most controversial issue in the journal’s history. OIT is junk! NO ONE believes it, no humans believe it.

  6. Agree on Gypsies (reluctantly, but I have seen or heard of no single instance of a Gypsy whose behavior wouldn’t make a perfect justification at least for immediate deportation to Melmac). But disagree on Indians in general. Worked with lots of Tamils, some Malealis, some Gujaraties and nearly all of them were high end. One of the major MNC’s I worked for (German origins) had its national HQs in Asia managed mostly by the German expats, especially on high technical positions. In India, that was not only national HQ but managed all four Indian markets plus some other small countries, from bottom to the top ALL were Indians and the density of Ph.D.’s per cubicle was probably highest in the whole corporate chain including Germany. They also had the most advanced technologies introduced right after Germany.

    1. Meh, that means nothing, go to GOOGLE NEWS, write India, and all you see is negative news like “Falling Economic Tide in India Is Exposing Its Chronic Troubles” or “Holy man castrates self after India guru charged with rape of 16-year-old girl” or “India’s Economic Growth Slows To Decade Low” or “India and Indonesia: who has it worse?” or “India ‘dowry deaths’ still rising despite modernization”

  7. OK, I tried once but apparently the comment didn’t stay. Why Google News should mean something more about the people I met and watched in the real life during a personal observation than – surprise – my personal observation? Why Google News at all? What sort of renowned source is that? News are news. Bad news sell. Everyone knows that.
    Anyway, I went to this highly acclaimed source of truth on the contemporary world coined Google News and found the tonality of news more or less balanced. For sure not all negative as you claim, Ale. You quoted only those 5 that suited your stand, of which one is meaningless (rape is everywhere, for rape info there are statistics for fuck sake, this is why we use statistics instead of single case tabloid news), the other 25 of the first 30 are mixed.
    Or the other way round – Germany by Google News in Ale’s selective mode: “Germany’s Conspicuous Silence”, “Religious Sect Raided in Germany on Abuse Fears”, “German Industrial Output Dropped in July After June Surge”, “How Germany’s political elite is failing”, ” “Hidden by Glowing Stats, Germany’s Poor Struggle”.
    Following your logic it should mean that Germany is in deep shit. Read my lips: it ain’t.
    I see the grounds to shoot dead the inflated Indian pancentralism (I made this term now and it STANDS) but I don’t see grounds to shoot each and every aspect of India from each and every position. Like when Russia ‘rebukes’ India it looks more bizarre than, say, Putin lecturing Cameron on freedom of press or parliamentary democracy. Indian economy may slow or rise but it is based on small time businesses that grow and lots of IT intangible value. And there is amazing human exports of Indians overseas. E.g. the IT departments of the foreign companies in Singapore (about 60% of GDP) are made in majority by Indians. Go there and watch. There are also tons of other Indians, mostly – Bangladeshi – who build the new high rise buildings and sleep on the streets. You appear to see only the latter group while India is made of both.
    Of the BRIC countries, Russia falls far behind mostly because it didn’t form many important cities. No it didn’t. Nor did it fine tune any economic specialty over the past 20 years other than exploiting oil resources and gas delivery international blackmail. India’s economy is not based on selling worldwide the crude palm oil at least (actually, by the Indian law it is forbidden) The most specific measurement, the GaWC business connectivity (Taylor et al, 1998, 2004, 2008, 2010) shows that the city number 3 in Russia still falls behind the city number 6 in India. I hear you but NO, it has nothing to do with the population size. GaWC connectivity is all about the intensity and scale of business process flows with the world city network. In Russia, what practically counts is Moscow and – barely – St Petersburg. In India you have at least Bombay, New Delhi, Kalkutta, Madras, Bangalore – all above GaWC connectivity 0.20. This alone means a lot because the world is cities, who’s got the cities – has it all.
    I don’t call for less radical stands on India or anything. I am radical stand on everything the evidence or morals allow so. Here they don’t. Indian overism (another term I hereby proclaim) sucks, Indians in general both suck and don’t. Amicus Plato, Sed Magis Amica Veritas.

  8. Rober lindsay listen you cave monkey this is the truth about aryan invasion lies . all you white nordics supremacists lies have been broken and yet around beatin the same bush like a mad dog…
    Listen stinky breath If you would pull your brainless head out of your smelly ass, you would understand perfectly what I tried to tell you to no avail

  9. Hey Lindsey me and Arnab Ray discussed about it on majorityrights-i.e Aryan invasion theory but i would talk about science,not some fictional concept.
    If Brahmins are all Aryan then how they vary genetically so much?For example south Indian Brahmins have very low caucasian blood(sometimes nothing-VIZ Telgu Brahmin) while north Indian Jat have highest European blood along with Kashmiri Hindu.Among Brahmin communities Bengali Brahmin have shown highest caucasian blood although they forms 3 different halo groups-south Asian,west Asian,Eastern European.But Razib Khan has written Bengali Brahmin have high percentage of east Asian gene while Tamil Brahmin have shown south-west Asian genetics.
    How Brahmin genetics are varying so much if they are from one single Gene pool?

      1. I can answer his question, some Brahmins in south are converted Brahmins, For example in South in Andhra pradesh and Tamil nadu, Iyengar community is not Purely Brahmin,Most of Lower Varna’s were converted to Iyengar Brahminhood in 12th century.
        You have to understand brahmin communities by their Gotra , By this means you can trace their Lineage, for example my paternal Grandparents come from Niyogi Brahmins of south india, and my Maternal Grandparents come to Tamil Iyer Brahmins.
        Not sure i have caucasian or Australoid Genes or Appearance, I am sending a mail to robert probably he will let me know about my Ancestry

        1. Andhra and Telengana brahmans are real brahmans. I am talking about vaidukulus, not much idea about niyogis though. It is only the tamil brahmin who are converted. Most of them are vaishnava follower.

      2. ROBERT
        Sir. Would it be possible for the block on my ISP to be lifted so that I can communicate via my computer? I will make every attempt to control my behavior and not autistically repeat myself. I am having to post from my dumb phone.

  10. From my experience of what I have seen, South Indian Brahmins at best look like North Indian people. Brahmins from the Northern part of South Asia can look very West Asian or even pretty European looking, mixed with Indic.
    Look at some of these upper caste Bengalis (a few are Brahmins, others not). Notice they all have rather strong European look to them. Of course they don’t look fully European but a mix of almost West European and Indic. It’s their overall features that give of significant West European look.
    Bengali Brahmins typically have twice as much Northern European than Southern Brahmins.
    I always thought Soumitra Chaterjee gave me rather strong West European look about him with Indic. He has a rather strong resemblance to the British actor Jeremy Brett, famous for playing Sherlock Holmes on TV.
    This Bengali Brahmin has somewhat of a resemblance to Jewish-American actor Jeff Goldblum in his younger days.
    This Bengali looks very European. He is not a Brahmin. Play the video and it’s the man speaking.
    From what I have seen, Bengalis (both Hindus of WB and Muslims of Bangladesh) generally have rather sharp nose. It’s not long or high high as say Punjabis but significantly sharper than South Indians.
    Nasal Index
    Brahman (Bengal) 70.3
    Brahman (Bihar) 73.2
    Brahman (Bhojpur) 74.6
    Rajput 71.6
    Kayasth (Bengal) 70.3
    Jat 68.8
    Gujjar 66.9
    Sikhs 68.8
    Tamil Brahman 76.7
    Salman Khan of Khan Academy
    Fazlur Khan, architect of the Sears Tower in Chicago and whose structural blueprint is now used in the construction of most modern tall buildings.
    Some other Bangladeshis. This guy looks rather strongly Afghan influenced.
    I think this kid has some resemblance to half Pakistani-Half British One Direction singer Zayn Malik
    Some more examples
    On the whole, I think upper and middle caste Hindu Bengalis generally look slightly more Europoid than Bangladeshi Muslims (slightly higher Northern Euro admix), but some Bangladeshi Muslims show significant Afghan/ Turkic admixture (West Asianid mix), which should not be surprising given Bangladesh had been ruled by Afghans and Turks for several centuries.
    Trust me, I have seen some Bangladeshis in the UK look very similar to Pakistanis. Bangladeshis, on the whole, are generally significantly lighter skinned than South Indians. In fact, I don’t think I have come across a single South Indian that was light skinned by South Asian standard, in person.
    Here is from Wikipedia about Bangladesh:
    East Bengal – the eastern segment of Bengal – has been historically an important center of trade and commerce since at least the first millennium BCE.[15] The Ganges Delta provided advantages of a mild, almost tropical climate, fertile soil, ample water, and an abundance of fish, wildlife, and fruit.[15] The standard of living is believed to have been higher compared with other parts of South Asia.[15] As early as the thirteenth century, the region was developing as an agrarian economy.[15] The region was a junction on the south west silk route, and commercial centers emerged at several ancient and historical cities across the region. Under Mughal rule, the region flourished as the center of the worldwide muslin trade.[15] The British, however, on their arrival in the late eighteenth century, chose to develop Calcutta, now the capital city of West Bengal, as their commercial and administrative center in South Asia.
    Bengalis vary in their looks. Some look more Europoid, others sort of look Eurasian, in the sense of exhibiting both Europoid and Asian features simultaneously, though closer to Europoid. Some of the tribals look fully Asian. Of course there are also some others that show very strong Australoid features.

  11. Sorry, my long post was to counter the idiocy where some claim most Bengalis are dark. There are plenty of lighter skinned (by South Asian standards) people in Bengal as well.

  12. ‘Bengalis vary in their looks. Some look more Europoid, others sort of look Eurasian, in the sense of exhibiting both Europoid and Asian features simultaneously, though closer to Europoid. Some of the tribals look fully Asian. Of course there are also some others that show very strong Australoid features.’
    I should stress, this particular bit at the bottom of the long post is my own analysis.

  13. “Who is Dr. Swamy? Some worthless Hindu dog? LOL.”
    Obviously he talks a lot of nonsense, but if you over-perform him with such speech, no authority is gonna take your statements seriously!
    Just a genetic example:
    #Do you know where haplogroup R originated? Its in south/central-asia!
    #Most west-Europeans have R1b which is direct descendant of R1a1!
    #That Rajib-Khan(not real khan/fake pathan) as a mutt(just like most other Bengali Muslims) is hellbent on proving something but his theories no-longer holds any water.
    #There was no india 60years ago, North-india was in afgan(central-asia),pakistan,kashmir diaspora(see map of ancient-subcontinent), just like southern part was with lanka,malaye & andaman. If you connect Australia with neighboring Indonesia & create austro-nesia, you can’t call it Australian invasion! North-indians too have prehistoric roots.White Caucasoid type Kashmirs have neolithic presence in the valley. Kalash (the nordic looking south-Asians, too are distinct & indigenous to chitral/pak).

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