More to Punjabi Sikhs Than Meets the Eye

Beartrix wrote:

Hey Robert, did you hear anything about this murder suicide of a Mr Avtar Singh in Selma, CA?
‘From Kashmir to California: in the footsteps of a wanted killer-Journalist Zahid Rafiq tells how he tried to reach Avtar Singh, a former Indian military man living outside Fresno with a dark past in Kashmir. On Saturday, Mr. Singh killed his family and himself.’
It’s quite interesting, Mr Singh was a former Indian Army officer wanted for ‘atrocities’ committed during his service in Kashmir.

Yes we heard something about it.
What’s funny is that around here most Sikhs are rabid Indian nationalists. They are almost Hindutvas too, because they won’t let you say two words against Hinduism before they get mad and shut you down.
I have tried to talk to a few of them about Kashmir, but they always take a strong Indian nationalist line on that. One family started pounding on their table and ranting about Pakistan. I asked why they cared so much about Kashmir, and they said a lot of Sikhs including their relatives had served in the Army in Kashmir.
Around here, Sikh separatists are quite rare. I have met a few of them, but they are not common. Sikh separatists are critical of their own society, and they really hate India. They are sympathetic to Kashmiri and the separatist rebellions in the Northeast.
I thought I would get somewhere saying shit about India and how Punjab would be better off separate. That typically doesn’t work at all. One guy got mad and started ranting and raving about how great India was, and then he went on this crazy tirade against the West, especially America. He was a Sikh! But he may as well have been a Hindu for all intents and purposes.
Most Sikhs will tell you they don’t believe in caste, that caste sucks, and that Sikhs don’t believe in caste. But that’s as far as they will go against Hinduism. You get the impression that Sikhs think they are part of Hinduism or at least a branch of it.
Sikhs seem extremely cool at first until you scratch the surface a bit. I noticed the same callousness and selfishness that I have seen in most other Indians.
All Sikhs insist that Punjab is very rich, and there are no poor people. I told one guy that there was 25% malnutrition in Punjab, better than 50% in India but still. He shrugged his shoulders and said there are rich and poor in every country. He clearly was not bothered in the slightest that 25% of his own people were starving! Then I started to realize that Sikhs are really Indians first and Sikhs second.
Some of them around here can be friendly enough, but typically anything other than the most casual conversation is quickly shut down. A few will be friendlier than that, but that’s the minority. One guy lied and told me he was a Mexican when he was really a Sikh.
I asked a couple of them about their religion and they just shut me down. They said there’s a temple if you want to go and learn about it. They clearly don’t want converts at all! The truth is that they are pretty difficult people to get to know, and I think they really only want to socialize with their own kind.
I will say that they are model citizens, and they commit almost no crime. They have very strong families with strong emphasis on discipline in children. The men are good family men who work hard and help their kids every day after school with their homework. The kids are quite studious and seem to do well in school. Many around here are either in college or headed to college. You see them in coffee shops crowded around their books.
Punjabi women are very beautiful, and the guys are handsome too. But it seems that they only date their own kind. I haven’t been able to get any Punjabi women to say more than a few words to me in general.
However, there are some young Sikhs now who are born in the US. They are extremely assimilated, and most of the bad qualities of their immigrant brethren are gone. I met a few of the guys, and they are very cool. They are also quite smart and intellectually curious, which is pretty rare around here. They become full-fledged Americans very quickly.

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82 thoughts on “More to Punjabi Sikhs Than Meets the Eye”

  1. Robert L: “I haven’t been able to get any Punjabi women to say more than a few words to me in general.”
    Robert I know you’re into game and all but be careful when picking up Punjabi women as their culture (Punjabi culture in general regardless of religion) is big on honour. Depending on the family (ie how conservative they are), the girl could get into deep shit if caught. Exercise some discretion.

    1. Oh so that is what is going on. Yes, the women seem like they are very afraid or inhibited or something in regards to talking to non-Indian men. Like if they are caught talking to me, that makes them a whore or something. You very much get that impression. Almost like a lot of Arab women.
      I’ve never been able to pick up any Punjabi woman at all, so I would not worry about that if I were you. The men very much rule the roost and the women are submissive, feminine and under the control and thumbs of the men to a great degree.

      1. I’d make an educated guess that it is fear that propels them away from you. I know that game is a casual pastime for a lot of guys, but with Punjabi women, your actions could have some serious consequences. Punjabi Muslims are just as patriarchal, rigid, and honour obsessed as their sikh and Hindu counterparts. I’ve noticed that amoung desi Muslims, Punjabi women practice sex segregation (purdah) to a greater degree than others.

        1. “Unfortunately the rest of my husband’s Indian tribe/family are the usual mooching, gossiping, lazy ass bunch of imbeciles obsessed with their little family hierarchy. ”
          I have to be very firm with family members like that. In fact, I’ve cut most of them off entirely. I’d never marry a Desi guy because if I don’t want to deal with the typical annoying Desis in my own family, I sure as hell ain’t gonna deal with them in someone else’s!
          But lucky for your your hubby individuated at a young age. Had he not, its doubtful you’d marry him. Have you read any of the gori blogs where women from all over the world are complaining about this issue? It used to be only Desi wives and girlfriend had to deal, now that Desi men have (unfortunately) entered the global dating scene, EVERYBODY got to deal with this mess!

        2. Beatrix, honestly I don’t know what the appeal is there in Desi guys for non-Desi women. I understand the draw towards India and Hinduism, but you don’t need to date or marry a Desi dude to explore India or learn about Hinduism. In fact they’d have a better experience if they DIDN’T get involved with desi dudes.
          Even a lot of the Desi dudes who are born in the West have many of the same issues the dudes back in South Asia have. It will probably not be until the 4th generation that they don’t, if ever.

        3. “Well, I don’t have any special ‘draw’ towards India or Hinduism & neither does my Kashmiri Muslim husband.”
          Your husband is an Indian and he has no draw to his own country and culture? Hmmmm.

        4. Bhabhi ji,
          Let me clarify. Beatrix, Biwi, fatimabiwi is married in to the family of Kashmiri Separatist. So naturally they don’t feel good about India.

        5. “Yes, Beatrix converted to Islam. She is a Muslima.”
          She can answer for herself.
          Beatrix, are you the same commenter who said you find Islam boring and unwelcoming?
          Why not simply renounce it?

          1. “Yes, Beatrix converted to Islam. She is a Muslima.”
            She can answer for herself.

            You’re not supposed to talk to me like this on here, ok? I’ll answer for commenters if I want to. It’s well known on the board that she’s a convert.

    2. @ Dota
      You are right on the money. Sometime back, I had this conversation with a Sardarji in Delhi, who proudly remarked how Punjabi women are all virginal ‘unspoiled fruits’. I couldn’t tell him that the ‘soni Punjabi kudi’ that he was thinking of making is wife was actually the bike that Punjabi guys didn’t get a ride on.
       
      I have also known South Delhi ‘Punjabans’ who’d talk shit about black amongst their own but have secret African boyfriends. I used to be rather judgemental about this since it came off as two-faced, but after having a couple of conversations with the said Punjabans I realised it is plain old self preservation, to play the field in spite of the ‘honour culture’ they live in.

      1. Have you known any Punjabi Khatris AI? Are their values any different from the rest of the Punjabi population (regardless of religion)? I’m interested in the value systems of the Khatris and the Chinyotis as their cultures are more trader/mercantile oriented.

        1. @ Dota
          I have no idea if the Punjabis I know are Khatris or not. I can spot a high caste person from a lower caste by their mannerisms and (sometimes) surnames, but apart from that, I still struggle with spotting individuals by their castes, sub-castes and other feudal divisons.
           
          @ Bhabiji
          One cannot live in mainland Indian on-and-off for over 5 years and still be socially isolated enough not to be culturally familiar with the Indians you interact with. The exceptions are socially inept men and women who draw all their conclusions about the world from reading internet articles/blogs/forums.

        2. @Dota
          On that note, even that popular online claim by Brahmins can be distinguished by their ‘fair skin’ is bunkum. A lot of mainland Indian Brahmins (as I picked from their surnames and self-aggrandisations) are quite brown skinned, with all the dirty blochiness thats common in the desi skin type.

      2. And you say that “South Asia is not my world”, Atheist Indian?
        With comments such as the one above it appears you are very firmly enmeshed in the South Asian mindset.

  2. Sikh men are hot but like most South Asian men they are wed to their moms. And Jatt Sikhs are amongst the most classist, casteist and sexist people on the planet.
    Most countries East of Turkey suck for women. Feminism is the only answer.
    Believe me, I’d prefer to “date my own kind” too but 99% of them have the above problems.

  3. “Even my Indian husband was completely disgusted.”
    You’re married to an Indian dude? WHY? Has he managed to individuate from his parents?

  4. Sikhs have always been close with the British. Sikhs, along with Jats and Gurkhas did not substantially rebel in 1857 compared to other Hindu groups (led by high castes).
    Regarding to gangs – Violence happens whenever first generation minorities are together in large populations in a city. See Irish/Italian gangs in early New York or Pakis in London. Some minorities, see Blacks, never seem to lose this violence while other minority groups assimilate. Due to the insular nature of these Indian groups, it is likely they won’t assimilate as well as our European immigrants.
    Most Sikhs I’ve known are hard working. Unlike many Hindus I’ve worked with. Hindus (Gujarati? Don’t know which tribes to call out) are very similar to Jews. Most Hindus I’ve worked with play a very innocent/subservient act until the opportunity arises. Morally wrong, but both those people find chinks to get ahead after stepping on a few toes.
    See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nICv8gCIFYM&feature=related
    It shows how Gujarati Indians are cornering down on the diamond trade, which were long held by Jews.

    1. “Morally wrong, but both those people find chinks to get ahead after stepping on a few toes.”
      Hey, you can’t say that! The government of India has officially banned the use of the word “chink”. And I’m not joking!
      “A few days ago, the Indian Ministry of Home Affairs asked all states and union territories to book anyone who calls a person from North East India a “chinki”, under the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act. The punishment is up to five years imprisonment and denial of anticipatory bail.”
      http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-06-11/people/32156735_1_stereotype-jail-term-community

        1. As long as young desi men do not grow a pair and individuate from their parents, Bharat will never be mahan.

        2. Indians are not created for obeying any laws. As Nana Patekar said: सौ में अस्सी बेइमान फिर भी मेरा भारत महान .

      1. How many times are you going to repeat the same thing about Indian men you moron bitch? You deserve to be bukkakked by a dozen donkeys.

        1. “Indians are not created for obeying any laws. ”
          Indian men are created to obey their moms…… forever.
          Bobby, notice how when push comes to shove and we get down to the real reason behind India’s (and South Asia’s) impotence, the South Asian guys here avoid the topic.
          Living with your parents forever and the joint family household…… DISCUSS.

    2. Gujaratis are pretty industrious. “Patel plazas” are opening up everywhere. They are cheap too. I don’t know how they do it but the local patel grocery shop here brings in a boatload of them from India every few months.
      Hindus are incredibly hard working in general in the USA. The lazy Hindus you’ve met are an exception.

      1. “Hindus are incredibly hard working in general in the USA. The lazy Hindus you’ve met are an exception.”
        Their mothers crack the whip!

        1. “Would you, when you become one ?”
          You mean “if” I become one. I’m not a real strong believer in “family” for myself. The planet has enough people and it certainly doesn’t need any more of us Desis, does it?
          But if I had kids I would encourage them to grow up, move out and make it on their own and choose their own partners and live separately.

  5. “approximately 85% of the samples indicate toxic levels of uranium, lead, mercury, nickel, cadmium, arsenic, aluminum & manganese. ”
    I’m a rare earth guy. Tell me when they begin shitting Gadolinium.
    “Personally, I don’t know of any way to ‘detox’ all this crap out of what was once prime farm land.”
    White man should have left India alone dear Phatimabibi. Industrialization + Greed + Ignorance + Lack of environmental consideration = Cadmium and Arsenic in piss. Indians will get their revenge by Indianizing the whole world. You are warned!

    1. “Indians will get their revenge by Indianizing the whole world. You are warned!”
      Indian cuisine, music, art, dance, poetry, fashion, philosophy, yoga, meditation, etc, are all ways in which global Indianization would be welcome by many people worldwide.
      The creepy Oedipal ma-beta relationship and the joint family living thing, uh, no.

      1. Bhabiji, I agree with you that Indian men are mamma’s boys, and are a real pain to live with. I will even hypothesize that most of the stuff Robert complains ( and some of the praise he allows) about in his India posts stem from the toxic environment known as the Great Indian Family Values. I agree that the relationship between women and their grown sons is abnormal, and that children in India grow up with a lot of unnecessary baggage, and brainwashing. But don’t go on repeating it again and again, please. Your point gets diluted.
        If you want to discuss Indian men and their mothers, come to Indian Homemaker’s blog, and we will have fun tearing them apart. 😉
        No offence meant.

    2. Aakash
      “White man should have left India alone dear Phatimabibi. Industrialization + Greed + Ignorance + Lack of environmental consideration = Cadmium and Arsenic in piss. ”
      The alternative would have been a static Hindu society unable to socially evolve presided by an equally static and decaying Islamic dynasty. No thanks to both.

      1. “The alternative would have been a static Hindu society unable to socially evolve presided by an equally static and decaying Islamic dynasty. No thanks to both.”
        What do they both have in common? Desi mama’s boys.
        Its family collectivism, the joint family living structure, expectations that the son will live with you forever, and the women using her son as a surrogate husband, thus never allowing him to individuate that causes stagnation in South Asia.

      2. AP, at this point everybody here things you are a mindless retarded drone. Why don’t you disappear for another 6 months and learn some Hindi in the meantime?

      3. At least the environment would have been pristine. Also, there was a high chance that many countries would have been carved out. There would have been no greedy fat cat industrialists. Lots of positives. Imagine Tamil Nadu being a country. I think Tamils are generally the coolest of all Indians: at least all the ones that I know. A Tamil state would be highly productive (south Indians in general are far more productive than my brothers the Northies). There would be a greater chance of leftist and populist movements taking off from the beginning. Industrialization would have been gradual and planned. Not the urban shit fest that India currently is.
        Contrary to what people believe, there ARE Hindu socialists. Unions are present in a lot of factories. Unfortunately, with the IT boom coinciding with market liberalization, middle class clowns have begun to dominate the internet drowning out reasonable Hindus that are out there. I don’t mind a Hindu socialist party set up in India. Of course, it has tremendous challenges as caste barriers need to be broken but it is doable. Even a lot of reasonable Hindus from the clown party that is BJP can be attracted to join the Hindu left. Maoists can be the allies and so can reasonable, leftist Muslim parties. That is the only hope for India. It probably is too late though. Bharat mata ki Jai.

      4. The alternative is not having modern mdecine, comfort and convenience of utilities like electricity, gas, running water , sewage treatment plants etc..
        No TV, Internet, Telephone/cell phone, ceiling fans, Air Con, garbage trucks, airplanes, microwave, fridge, modern cosmetics….and many many others products and services that Indian middle and upper class could not live without that is directly a result of Western scientific progress.

    3. Aakash. Think of it like this, the British Raj may have been exactly what was needed to keep India from becoming an Islamic terrorist state today. Imagine if they had never come and checked those Sultans, Nawabs, Shish Kebobs, etc. I shudder to think.

  6. Bhabiji
    You have a massive chip on your shoulder and you keep going on about indian’s being mommies boys. There are 1.2 billion Indians and they cannot all be the same, can they?
    I hate mindless generalisation. It is no better then racism.
    Your judgement is clearly clouded and you should chill out and sort out your own problems first and I wish you all the best with that.
    Regards

    1. Typical desi guy reaction. And many of the desi guys who react like this still live with their moms. At most they “go abroad” for education or work, but once they get married they will go back and live with mama.
      READ THE INDIAN FEMALE AND GORI BLOGS for how much problem this creepy relationship poses for the world.

      1. I am surprised you views about Punjabi Sikhs have changed so drastically after just one posts.
        You are going through the transition state of perception formation. I have realized that your disliking for Indians and Hindus in general is because your initial negative perception about Indians was not handled in a mature manner instead was confronted with usual rhetorical. And that made you even bitter.
        I deal people on their personal merit. And that is the best way to deal with people. I have earlier tried to form perception about people from third sources and more often than not, It went wrong.

        1. You know, at first I thought these Sikhs were the bees knees, the best of India. Now they may well be the best of India, but that ain’t saying much. After you really get to know them well, you realize that they are just Indians pretty much like all the rest of them, not that different from the Hindus or any other. I met a Jain once and this is said to be the coolest religion on Earth. He was a typical Indian jerk. He might as well have been a Hindu. He also told me snidely that they did not accept converts, and I would make a lousy Jain anyway.
          They’re all pretty much just INDIANS. See, that is the thing. They hate each other so much, but they are so alike. Indian Muslims, Christians, Jains, Hindus, Sikhs – not so different!

        2. Now that’s something Interesting !
          Here I can see the eternal cultural clashes of East Vs West. Individualistic West Vs Collective East.
          Jainism may be the coolest religion in the world but not Jains.
          Islam may be a peaceful religion but not all Muslims are peaceful.
          Hinduism may be an evolved and tolerant religion but not all Hindus.
          And so on.
          There is no guarantee that followers of any religion and culture would be same after thousand years or even hundreds years. But original culture and religion won’t change. The sad thing is that any religion or culture is judged by behavior of its followers so the actual assessment of a religion and culture on its own merit is not always possible without studying a lot of its nitty-grities in detail, but that’s not always possible.

  7. Sikhs and Hindus intermarry often, and in Punjabi Khatri families, the eldest son is a Sikh and the rest are Hindus. Sikhism is a protestant form of Hinduism.
    All the Sikh gurus were Khatri caste and all of them married other Khatris
    Sikhs also have untouchability. Untouchable dalit sikhs are called Mazhbi Sikhs
    20% of Sikhs are Dalit Mazbhi Sikhs
    60% are Jat farmer Sikhs
    20% are Khatri merchant sikhs
    The demographics of Punjab is 40% Hindu and 60% Sikh and sikhs are split as above
    The khalistan movement was 100% led by a section of Jat Sikhs
    who are no more than 36% of Punjab, meaning at least 64% of Punjab was opposed to the Khalistan movement
    Besides, 30% of Sikhs live outside Punjab in other parts of India and they are well settled and have no need for Khalistan
    The Khalistan Jat Sikh movement was crushed by a Jat Sikh cop, and a Jat Sikh congress chief minister.
    0% of Dalit Sikhs supported Khalistan, because they feared that in an independent Khalistan, the Jat Sikh kulaks would be even more oppressive to the Dalit Sikhs.
    This fact was tactically used by the Indian govt, who created and armed militias of Dalit Mazbhi sikhs to liquidate suspected Khalistan sympathisers among Jat Sikhs

  8. Robert, Jains and Hindus also intermarry heavily
    Among several merchant castes within the same family, some are Jains and some are Hindus. Jains and Hindus have much the same theology, except Jainism at the core is atheistic

  9. Regarding converts, Indian religions are like Judaism,
    They are not after numbers, and just like Judaism, Indian religions are tribal
    and grew out of a merger of various tribal cults
    That said, there are a fair number of white Hindus and Sikhs
    such as Hare Krishnas, 3HO is a white Sikh group. Hinduism Today is a white Hindu group that is accepted as legit by Indian Hindus
    Bali is Hindu, The Chams of South Vietnam are Hindu. The largest Hindu temple in the world is in Angkor Vat in Cambodia.
    Hinduism grows by osmosis, not active conversion. Hindus move to a non-Hindu area, and as their wealth and influence increases, locals join in.

    1. Barani I agree with what you wrote but why this, “That said, there are a fair number of white Hindus and Sikhs
      such as Hare Krishnas, 3HO is a white Sikh group.”
      Both Hare Krishnas and 3HO have BLACK, Latino and other members beside just “white”.
      Get over your white obsession.

  10. God damn where is Cyrus and the Persians? I highly doubt Russia or Iran, China, Japan and the Middle East will take kindly to Indian “culture”, too xenophobic and nationalistic to Indians if you ask me.

    1. Russians seem to have a fascination with Hinduism and various Hindu sects are doing well there. There was even an article in a Russian newspaper saying that Russian-Indian couples are a perfect match because the cultures are similar (not that I’d agree). There are quite a number of Russian women in India these days and some do end up marrying Indian guys, which in my opinion is a mistake.
      China and India used to be sister civilizations, much knowledge was exchanged between the two, but politically these days they are on opposite ends, though again, certain aspects of Hinduism, like yoga, are huge there. Don’t forget Buddha was an Indian and Buddhism is practiced throughout China and Japan.
      Iran, they are fucked up. India absorbed its Parsees. Iran should ban Islam in all forms and return to Zorastrianism, like even most of its Muslim citizens would prefer. I feel really sorry for Iranaians, they are a smart people who hate their government and the religion they are forced to practice. Don’t even get me started on the oppression of Bahais there.
      Middle East. Oh what I could say about my time spent there! The beougoise are practicing yoga. That may be the way to subvert Islam there. The more shirk the better. Time will tell.

      1. Just curious Bhabhiji, have you ever met and interacted with real life Russians, Iranians and Middle Easterns in person? For someone who has actually interacted with a lot of people from a lot of countries, I find most of your discourses on people of other countries to be something one would draw off after reading a lot of blogs, forums and watching movies. Stereotypical and carciatured, with zero fluidity or substance.
         
        Buddha was a Nepali, not an Indian. Calling Buddha ‘Indian’ sounds utterly ridiculous, since the political entity we know as ‘India’ these days, didn’t exist in the BC era.
         
        China and India had civilisations based on completely different philosophies and values at different periods of time, hardly something to be called ‘sister civilisations’. Buddhism practiced in Japan and China are completely alien to the Indian dharmic interpretation of Buddhism. In all the times I visited China (visa free), there is nothing in the Chinese psyche and outlook towards life that I could put on Indians.
         
        The Islamic Republic of Iran is actually in a far better state than India is. If Iran is ‘fucked up’, mainland India is a septic tank, but again, you can’t compare if you read about these countries in online blogs.

        1. “Buddha was a Nepali, not an Indian. Calling Buddha ‘Indian’ sounds utterly ridiculous, since the political entity we know as ‘India’ these days, didn’t exist in the BC era.”
          Indophbia at its worst.
          Because even Nepal didn’t exist in BC era… dimwit..

        2. @ Mohit Gupta
          Buddha was a Nepali, as in, a person of the ethnic group known as Nepali today. I didn’t suffix ‘i’ at the end of Nepal to sound fashionable.

        3. Just curious Bhabhiji, have you ever met and interacted with real life Russians, Iranians and Middle Easterns in person? For someone who has actually interacted with a lot of people from a lot of countries, I find most of your discourses on people of other countries to be something one would draw off after reading a lot of blogs, forums and watching movies. Stereotypical and carciatured, with zero fluidity or substance.
          I don’t think she’s set foot outside the US. Her views of Iran are very bloggish. She might have met a few Iranian radicals and Shahis (whom cyrus has talked about) and she’s attributed a minority opinion to the majority. There are more pro Zoroastrian Iranians outside Iran than in it, sort of like there are more Khalistan supporters outside of Indian right now

        4. AP’s views of Iran are just wrong. That they should get rid of Islam and go back to Zoroastrianism, which most Iranians wish to do. This is just wrong and is a typical view of Islamophobes, mostly Jewish and other neocons, outside of Iran. I have known many Iranians. They were mostly Muslims. Most of them are into being Muslims and do not want to go back to Zoroastrianism.

        5. It’s also a common myth among Hindutvadis and other Islam haters that Islam destroyed Persian civilization. This is far from reality. In essence, Persia absorbed Islam and the Islamic Abassid civilization was constructed on the cultural infrastructure of the Persians. The Iranian people might have changed their religion, but Persian cultural practices and values live on. The Persians’ famed intellectual curiosity found expression through the medium of Islam. Aviciena, Biruni (the first indologist), Al Razi, Farabi, ect were the heart of Islamic civilization. Yet there is something characteristically Persian about their intellectual vigour. Persians possibly contributed more to the intellctual legacy of Islam than the Arabs did.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Persian_scientists_and_scholars
          Even today, Iran conducts the most scientific research in the Middle East as Wade had pointed out last year. AP is just an unschooled NRI child. She should stick to dissing arranged marriages and leave politics/history to the grown ups.

        6. “Just curious Bhabhiji, have you ever met and interacted with real life Russians, Iranians and Middle Easterns in person?”
          Very intimately in fact. I’ve dated several Iranians (Muslims, Parsees and Bahais) and Middle Easterners, travelled throughout the ME and Russia.

        7. @ Mohit Gupta
          “But there is no religious freedom for non-muslims like Bahai .for sure..”
          How can you be so sure of that?
          @ Bhabiji
          And I have intimately known aliens from the moon and know all about their culture. Dota is right, you should stick to dissing joint family and arranged marriages.
          @ Aakash
          “Those clowns are already on their way to being bible thumpers and I for one would get rid of them. ”
          *Thumps his atheist bible.
          * Starts thumping the his Atheist Bible.

        8. “But there is no religious freedom for non-muslims like Bahai .for sure..”
          “How can you be so sure of that? ”
          Do you know any Iranian Bahais? There are plenty in the US (and many other countries), ask them to tell you what it was like for them living in Iran.
          Failing that, because like many Desi guys you may not get out and about much, watch some documentaries about it.

        9. @ Bhabiji
          Flew charter to Iran occasionally, during my days as a Skat Air FO and from what I have observed first hand, religious freedom in Iran is a tad bit better than the so called ‘secularism’ in India. I personally know a Jewish jeweller couple living in Tehran and they assure me they experience no religious or institutional persecution whatsoever. Not more than what regular Muslim Iranians experience in the country.
           
          So I am not really buying into the ‘there is no religious freedom in Iran’ theory that comes from your characteristically desi ‘experience’ of reading blogs, watching TV shows and viewing films. Perhaps one day, when I get around to buying an idiot box and cable (or whatever is used for transmission these days), I’d watch the said documentary and assess for myself what the fuss really is about.

    1. The fair-skinned, green-eyed Arab Atheist in the above video is interesting to look at. Quite handsome in an odd way, and I agree with what he says that most Christians have ceased taking their religion seriously about 100 years ago, and the other points he makes about Arab identity vs Muslim identity.
      Mohit, there’s a desi girl in the video who is claiming to be “black”. LOL.
      This whole “multi-culturalism” in UK only became an issue because of Desi Muslims from Bangladesh and Pakistan who refused to assimilate into British culture. Most people don’t have an issue with immigrants who assimilate and contribute positively to society, neither of which Desi Muslims on the dole bother to do.

  11. I live near Fresno, and our area has many Sikh families. The daughters are pretty oppressed, I notice.
    Like the family in your story, a Sikh family of my acquaintance has moved around a lot because some people in India apparently want to kill the father, who is some kind of Sikh celebrity clergy type. Not too great for his family! I feel sorry for them, not knowing where they are even going when they move, living on the lam.

  12. Robert
    Sikhs can never feel comfortable being an independent nation (or Kashmiris for that matter) as long as the abomination called Pakistan exists in the neighborhood. After all, the wounds of partition are still fresh and will be carried over for at least a few generations. The media will keep them fresh too. Muslims who wanted their own country went (which was the biggest mistake as it unified everybody else against them) to Pakistan. Jinnah and his bunch of Muslim merrymen have blood on their hands. Forever.
    My contention is this: A NECESSARY condition for the self rule of Punjabis, Kashmiris, Tamils, etc. would be the complete disintegration of Pakistan into multiple states. Otherwise, when faced against a common threat (an extremist Islamic country such as Pakistan), whether it is real (in many cases it is) or imaginary (but drummed up by the media), they have no choice but to stay together. Split Pakistan into multiple, non threatening states, then a lot of the Indians might want to follow suit. Until then, Sikhs, Tamils etc are better off being with India. I don’t really care about North-East Indians and they can go. Those clowns are already on their way to being bible thumpers and I for one would get rid of them. Read about the most baptist state in the world here.
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/february/38.51.html
    I wonder why the Indian govt. even cares? Set them free. Let them save themselves through Christ fairy tales.

    1. Holy crap I actually agree with everything Aakash has said here. I just want to briefly add one more point to Aakash’s post up there. If Pakistan breaks up, it might bode well for India as China loses a pawn. If the stupid Indians play their cards right, they can easily recruit Sindh to their camp as that province is heavily Hinduized. Punjab might eventually follow suit because they are culturally Hinduized as well. The NWFP can join up with Afghanistan as the Pashtuns claim that region and do not recognize the Durrand line anyway. Plus the NWFP is pretty useless. Balochistan is a bit of wild card but I hear from some Balochi separatists here in Saskatoon that they view India favorably since they believe that RAW has been arming the resistance. I don’t know how reliable these people are but I have no reason to think the Balochis resent India either. Kashmir? I have no idea. But I strongly vote in favour of dismembering Pakistan.

      1. Kashmiris can have their “independence”. North easterners can form their own union. South Indians can too. The ones I know are far more gentle souls than the Northies.
        Even bollywood can be extremely crass while dealing with South Indians. Check out Ra One (shah rukh khan’s movie last year). The portrayal of the South Indian scientist embarrasses me (0:21 to 2:19). As does Satish Shah’s version of a south Indian later in the clip (3:39-4:59). This is what Hindi audiences dig and it happens in reality too. Lot of north Indians look down upon the South Indians and therefore Bollywood wastes no opportunity in portraying them as ape like.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsRR01tRkaw

        1. LOL! Hilarious. North, South, East, West, Desi guys are all the same. At least SRK is aging well, unlike most of them.

        2. Also whats interesting is that the southies do not stereotype north Indians in this manner. I heard Ra One bombed. Only in a place like India would someone like SRK succeed.

  13. I don’t think anyone here knows “real” Sikh history, culture or politics. To Barani who says that Sikhs are protestant versions of Hinduisim. No erm , Sikhs are not idol worshipers and we have a different social, political and theological idealogy.
    I’ve met plenty of indian nationalist Sikhs, too bad all that aspartame in their coca colas and silly bollywood movies have gone to their heads. This is made worse by hindus who tend to call themselves punjabi yet cant even speak the language (what are you ashamed of ?). Maybe they should wake up and smell the shit.
    The clutches of hinduism after finishing with buddhism in India is trying to do the same with Sikhs, infiltrate our culture, destroy our language and just generally make us wimps like you (the concept of honor based on familial respect, casteism etc).

  14. That’s true last time I was visited India. But when I was saw green land full with peddies and very pleasant place someone said me its a land of Punjab. I was spend my 1 week at Amritsar called Golden temple that is very humble place and religious place. 1k people eating free food in every one shift everyday. Then I was visited some farmer house there house is filled with every kind of food. Becz they produced thereself in there farms.they said everyone have there own property of Rs.1 crore some less and some very rich. Punjabi people very sincere .. Very respective ppl

  15. Do you know difference among punjabis. Ludhiana is full of workers from Bihar who are not punjabis or Sikhs. There are very poors you can see in cities of Punjab who are non Punjabi and non Sikh living in Punjab for work.

  16. I’m not sure what Sikhs you’ve met or had conversations with that left a sour taste in your mouth but Sikhs are friendly and open. There’s a time and place for everything and a manner of approach when you speak to someone about their religion and one must have the patience to listen to answers.
    I feel you spoke to many a handful of Sikhs that thought may you weren’t serious in your questions and brushed you along.
    From my experience Sikhs are very friendly and will take the time to answer your questions about Sikhism and in fact they are very proud and enjoy educating people about their religion.
    I feel you should take your time and speak to 5000 Sikhs before being so harshly opinionated about a community of 35 million.
    I am a Sikh from Canada and even from a young age we are taught to answer questions fully. My uncles and aunties used to sit us down as ask us about our hair, turbans , karas etc. and when we got frustrated they told us “if you don’t know who you are then how can you explain someone else what a Sikh is”….so from a young age we were taught to educate ourselves and others if they asked questions about our religion.
    I feel the people you met were in a hurry or didn’t have time at that moment to fully answer your question….in USA and Canada everyone is busy. I’m sure if I went up to a christen , Muslim , Hindu etc. on the street and started a random conversation I would get a few that would feel uncomfortable having an open conversation about religion or politics.
    I am here and can answer any of your questions to the best of my knowledge . I speak as an individual and dont represent the whole Sikh community.

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