Response to Zionist Apologist

Repost from the old site.
Always-excellent commenter James Schipper responds to Zionist Apologist from a previous post.
Pretty good stuff here. The notion that the problem with Jews is Judaism itself is similar to the arguments of Gilad Atzmon and Israel Shamir. However, Kevin MacDonald points out that Jewish ethnocentrism does not go away in the absence of Judaism. A good document that makes that clear is his book review of Yuri Slezkine’s The Jewish Century.
I disagree with a lot in that review, but all you have to do is look around at a lot of Jewish radicals, and it’s clear that they have not yet, and never will, make a complete break with their Jewish identity. So pulling the Judaism out of the Jew does not solve the problem. As my physician noted when I told him that according to Jewish law, you never quit being a Jew, “So they get a piece of you, eh?”
In an unpublished interview with me, I asked Kevin MacDonald if the Jews would ever become less ethnocentric with time. He said emphatically, “No. The Jews will always be ethnocentric..”
Incidentally, I found MacDonald to be a warm, friendly, sane, intelligent and gracious man. I also did not think he was the slightest bit anti-Semitic, but maybe I am mistaken. He seemed to be a Judeophile in a sense; he was totally fascinated with Jews.
Jewish dual loyalty has been a problem everywhere there are Jews and is a direct consequence of their extreme ethnocentrism and nothing else, although James’ suggests that Judaism also plays a role.
James’ comments:
Giving Uganda to the Zionists would have been just as unjust as giving Palestine to them. Uganda wasn’t empty territory either. As to Argentina, it was a sovereign country and at the time of Herzl it had just learned to develop the pampas. Why on earth would they give some of their pampas to outsiders from Europe?
The best territory to cede to the Zionists would have been Western Australia. At the time it was sparsely populated — it still is — and unlike Palestine, it could easily have accommodated all the Jews of the world. Granted, Western Australia is mainly arid or semi-arid, but so is Palestine, with the difference that WA is huge. Unfortunately, the stinking British imperialists preferred to be generous with Arab land.
A diaspora is simply the result of emigration. Since 1880, there has been an Italian diaspora. Are these diaspora Italians sick? No, and their diaspora will soon disappear through assimilation because Italians do not have a tribal religion which tells them that Italians are God’s chosen people and that Italy is their sacred homeland, to which they should one day return.
The problem of Jews can be summed up in one word: Judaism. It is because of their religion that Jews can’t be fully assimilated and will always remain a foreign or semi-foreign body in Gentile societies. Judaism tells Jews that they are a people, not a religious community. Nobody refers to Lutherans. Orthodox, Sikhs, Mormons as a people because those religions are non-tribal.
Consider the difference between Presbyterians and Jews. Most Presbyterians in the world have at least some Scottish ancestry, but Presbyterianism is not at all about Scots or Scotland. Nearly all Sikhs are Punjabis or descend from Punjabis, but the Sikh religion is not in the least about Punjabis. By contrast, Judaism is all about Jews and their promised land.
If people sincerely believe in Judaism, one can have some sympathy for them, in the way that one can sympathize with a Jehovah’s Witness who sincerely believes that a blood transfusion is against God’s will.
It is much harder to have sympathy for atheists who remain proudly Jewish and become Zionists. To stop believing in Judaism while continuing to believe that Jews are a people and that Israel is their sacred soil is like stopping to believe in Catholicism but continue to obey the Pope.
In one way, Israel made life more difficult for Jews in Gentile countries because the existence of Israel makes Jews vulnerable to the charge of dual loyalty. This charge is more than a figment of anti-Semitic imagination.

References

MacDonald, Kevin. 2005. Stalin’s Willing Executioners: Jews as a Hostile Elite in the USSR – Review of Yuri Slezkine’s The Jewish Century. The Occidental Quarterly: 5(3), 65-100.
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10 thoughts on “Response to Zionist Apologist”

  1. Judaism tells Jews that they are a people, not a religious community. Nobody refers to Lutherans. Orthodox, Sikhs, Mormons as a people because those religions are non-tribal.

    Exactly.
    There’s no such thing as a Christian atheist, a Muslim atheist, or a Hindu atheist.
    And yet there are Jewish atheists. If Judaism really is a religion, that shouldn’t be the case.
    Like I said in another post, Jews are more of a racial/ethnic/tribal group than they are a religious one.

  2. A lot of secular non practicing Hindus still refer to themselves as such. Same with other groups. People will keep the cultural aspects of their religion while rejecting the theology.

    1. To a certain extent, okay.
      But no group is like Jews in this regard. It’s not even close.
      I have yet to meet an “atheist Muslim” or “atheist Christian.” Compare that to all the “secular Jews” and “atheist Jews” you come across.

    2. “A lot of secular non practicing Hindus still refer to themselves as such”
      True. Hinduism is similar to judaism in that you are cosmically confined to something. I doubt that you would see too many dalits doing this though. It seems to be an upper class hindu disease. It’s also one of the reasons I see upper caste hindus in the same light as the jews.

  3. True they aren’t as tribal as jews but they still retain their religious identity. Their are plenty of Irish Catholics who don’t care about Catholicism but that has given them no love for the British.

    1. Their are plenty of Irish Catholics who don’t care about Catholicism but that has given them no love for the British.

      That’s not my point, GSG.
      Think about it. These Irish people who have no love for the British hate the British for ETHNIC reasons, as in they’re IRISH.
      And again, most Jews aren’t even religious. So if Judaism is indeed a religion, why do they continue to call themselves Jews?
      I was baptized Greek Orthodox, but you don’t see me going around calling myself a Christian, because I don’t practice the religion.
      Just look at the ADL. By their own admission, most of them aren’t religious, and yet they’re as big on Jewishness as anyone around.
      Again, which proves my point that Jews are more of a race/tribe/nationality than a religion.

      1. “Think about it. These Irish people who have no love for the British hate the British for ETHNIC reasons, as in they’re IRISH.”
        To some degree that right. However, those people in Ulster are ethnically Irish too an they’re british butt boys. The whole idea of Britain is contaminated with protestant garbage. I like England, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, and Ireland better for several reasons. For one, they’re actual nations unlike Britain.

  4. Why did Kevin McDonald become so preoccupied with jews? If they were on opposite sides I could understand but he became interested in jewish tribalism when he was a member of the anti war movement, which had many jews.

    1. I think what happened is that McDonald became more aware of Jewish activities through his college experience. He began to notice their radicalism and attempts at social engineering firsthand.
      He wrote critiques of Jews, and Jews, in their usual fashion, called him a vicious anti-Semite. He then reacted by becoming even more critical of Jews.
      And the vicious cycle continued.
      The way I see it, either Jews need to start opening themselves up to more criticism, or they need to stop relentlessly criticizing the majority groups in their host countries. Something’s gotta give.

  5. GSG girl has a point. Many people who are raised in a religion and then become non-believers remain attached to that religion in some way. However, this rarely lasts more than a generation, and they usually don’t try to pass on their identity to their children. Secular Catholics will not seek to inculcate a Catholic identity in their children.
    When a Christian converts to another relgion, he ceases to call himself a Christian. On the other and, when a Jew converts to another religion, he often continues to call him Jewish.
    In my city, the two sons of a prominent Jewish businessman became Christians. They recently sold their late father’s business in order to dedicate themselves fully to a Christian church. Guess what, they always insist that they are 100% Jewish.
    Jews can be regarded as hereditary emigrants from Israel. With other emigrants, emigrant consciousness also remains but it hardly ever lasts beyond 2 generations. The great-grandchildren of Italian or Polish emigrants no longer see themselves as emigrants from Italy or Poland and they regard those countries as foreign. Jews left Israel about 2000 years ago, but they still see it as their country.
    There is no getting away from the fact that Judaism is a blood and soil religion. It is the religion of those who have the blood of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the soil is the Promised Land. Of course, Judaism is more than just that. Kosher, for instance, has nothing to do with blood and soil, any more than hallal does.
    Judaism is the only blood and soil religion in the world and it was intended for a people living in their own territory and remaining in it. It is one of the ironies and tragedies of history that all the practitioners of this blood and soil religion ended up living among people of different blood and on a different soil.
    A lot of hostility toward Jews was the result of religious intolerance. However, religious tolerance did not end anti-Jewish hostility. All it did was to turn anti-Judaism into anti-Semitism. Look at France. With the end of religious bigotry, hostility toward Huguenots ceased, but not hostility toward Jews. The explanation lies in the fact that Jews are not only a religion but also a nationality.
    Although I detest Zionists outside of Israel, I have no use for Jew-haters, let alone for obsessive, ideologized anti-Semites wo hold Jews responsble for much of what is wrong in this world. Still, Jews should at least recognize that their blood and soil religion is one cause of the hostility that they have so often attracted.
    Regards. James

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