American High School Girl Beaten to Death in Mexico

Elizabeth Mandala, an 18-year old high school girl from Sugar Land, Texas, went with two Mexican men, age 38 and 43, old enough to be her father, on a trip to Mexico to learn how to be a coyote and smuggle illegal aliens into the US. Smuggling illegals is a very good paying business. At the time, she was also working as a stripper in a local strip club. She was said to be “smartest girl in her class.”

Elzabeth Mandala, 18 year old US high school girl, beaten to death in Mexico.

I guess not too smart though.

She and the two men were found near the small town of Mina in a Toyota pickup truck that had crashed into the back of another truck. All three had been beaten to death. The killers then apparently staged the car accident. There was a cement block on the gas pedal of the crashed vehicle.

The two Mexican men were Dante Ruiz Siller, 38, and Luis Ángel Estrella Mondragón, 44.

Siller, a merchant, and Mondragon, a cab driver, were from a small town near Mexico City.

Comments are wide-ranging, many asking why Texas allows 18 year old girls to be strippers (All US states allow this). Many others asked why her mother allowed her to be a stripper and to go off to Mexico to learn how to smuggle illegals. I would say that she’s an adult and she can do whatever she wants, but that’s just me.

Her classmates at Kempner High School were shocked.

There is a lot of commentary about this on the White nationalist sites, much of it retarded, of course. Much of it is centered on the WN’s notion that Elizabeth was a mestiza, not White. However, the last name Mandala is Sicilian:

Mandala Name Meaning and History1. occupational name for a seller of scarves, from Greek mandilas.

2. altered form of Mannalà, a name of Arabic origin, derived from mann Allah ‘grace of Allah’. The surname is characteristic of the Palermo region and eastern Sicily.

Looks like Arabic -> Greek -> Sicilian language. The Sicilian language has a ton of Greek and Arabic words in it.

A number of Mandalas moved from Sicily to Houston, Texas around 75-125 years ago. All came from the same small village of 919 people in Sicily. Santa Cristina Gela is actually an Arbëreshë village in Sicily near Palermo. The Arbëreshë are colonies of Albanians who moved to Italy around 800 years ago. They speak dialects of Arbëreshë, which at this point is now a separate language from Italian.

Further, some of the Arbëreshë dialects in Italy are now so divergent they are separate languages from each other. The Arbëreshë of Santa Cristina Gela is currently an endangered language, as the young people are abandoning it. Residents of Santa Cristina Gela also speak Italian and Sicilian in addition to Arbëreshë.

The Arbëreshë in this part of Italy came there around 1492 after the Turkish Ottoman Muslims attacked the Byzantine Empire, overrunning much of it. These Arbëreshë came mostly from

The Arbëreshë were predominantly Greek Orthodox. They fled to Sicily, asking permission from the Sicilians to settle there in response to religious persecution. The Sicilians, no strangers to Islamic imperialism, granted them permission to settle.

They had come from the towns of Himarë, Albania, a bilingual Greek-Albanian town populated by Greeks living in Albania, and Koroni in the far south of Greece. Koroni was overrun in 1500. Although the surrounding area was conquered, Himarë continued to put up a valiant fight against the Ottomans that lasted for decades. Many residents of Himarë fled to Sicily in 1482. The Greek community in Himarë dates back to antiquity.

Elizabeth is from Sugar Land, which is near Houston. She is plausibly related to these Mandalas from around Houston, Texas:

Mandala`, Salvatore, Born Feb 15 1835 in Santa Cristina Gela, Sicily, Died Sep 20 1935 in Houston, Texas

Mandala`, Giuseppe, b.1873, Born Jan 26 1873 in Santa Cristina Gela, Sicily, Died Mar 20 1960 in Houston, Texas

Mandala`, Giuseppina Maria, Born Dec 18 1874 in Santa Cristina Gela, Sicily, Died Sep 14 1960 in Houston, Texas

Mandala`, Mercurio, Born Feb 15 1899 in Santa Cristina Gela, Sicily, Died Jan 17 1948 in Houston, Texas

Mandala`, Francesco, b.1877, Born Jan 23 1877 in Santa Cristina Gela, Died Dec 05 1957 in Houston, Texas

If you look closely at her phenotype in this video, that’s a classic Sicilian phenotype, one of many, but I’ve seen it before. I’ve known some Sicilian Italian-Americans who look very much like this girl. Around here, we have lots of mestizas, mostly Mexicans, and we also have quite a few Italian-Americans, all Sicilians. After a while, you get so you can sort of tell them apart.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoyjPAUwKMU]

Many photos of her can be found at this CBS photo gallery.

Furthermore, on her Facebook page, she has several friends with the same last name Mandala, quite possibly relatives. These Mandalas are all Italians living in Italy right now. The second one seems to be some sort of a Greek-Sicilian, which is possible, as there are Greek-speaking communities in Sicily. Furthermore, she is a fan of a Facebook group that is entirely in the Italian language, so it’s possible that she speaks Italian.

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131 thoughts on “American High School Girl Beaten to Death in Mexico”

  1. Either way, what a waste. I can’t believe the WN’s are arguing over something as benign as her “mestizosness” or not. They should just see her as a young American kid who got caught up in something stupid. The real question to me is, why did she do it? Greed…Or desperation?

    Also, fascinating research into her name origin. I never new there was such a community in Texas. Good job. The Greek-Arabic-Sicilian connection is spot on, from my own understanding and experience. Most would not have comprehended the historical connection.

    1. Thx, I was motivated to research the name because I was convinced that these idiot WN’s were wrong calling her a mestizo. For some reason, I didn’t think she was.

      Even Sicilian culture is said to be quite Arab, not to mention the language.

      Some speak about a Pakistan-Peruvian Axis of Arabized peoples, from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Arabia, North Africa, Turkey, Greece, Albania, South Italy, Southern Iberia and then on to Latin America. Looking at Latin Americans as an “Arabized” people explains a lot of things that are hard to explain otherwise.

      1. Some speak about a Pakistan-Peruvian Axis of Arabized peoples, from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Arabia, North Africa, Turkey, Greece, Albania, South Italy, Southern Iberia and then on to Latin America. Looking at Latin Americans as an “Arabized” people explains a lot of things that are hard to explain otherwise.

        Distinct ‘Arabic’ features and culture are a minority in Sicily — all multicultural pretensions aside.

        The average Sicilian looks like the actors Al Pacino or Marissa Tomei — not Mandala — who is of near-Eastern racial and ethnic origin, even if she is putatively Caucasian.

        1. Where do you guys get off, anyway? She can’t possibly be White because of the way she looks? How bizarre. You know, it just so happens that a lot of Whites have fairly dark, olive skin and phenotypes like hers.

          If you’re one of the native peoples of Europe, you’re White. Bottom line, full stop, and all that. There’s no further discussion. There are no non-Whites are native to Europe. None, zero, zippo. European = White. There’s nothing left to argue about. Hell, even Stormfront believes that. How does it feel to be even more radical than Stormfront?

        2. Both Marisa Tomei and Al Pacino would fit right in the Levant, amongst other places in the Near East. No big deal. It’s a basic Mediterranean “look,” a type of Caucasian phenotype. For example, being Greek, Turkish or Lebanese is hardly as exotically different from one another as you might imply. Same goes for Sicilians. They are in the same boat. They have a lot of Greek and Arab ancestry, amongst other things, and they are originally a Mediterranean group.

          This poor girl could have been 100% Sicilian, sure. Maybe she was something else. Most Americans would see her as White, surely with an “ethnic” element to her, but White none the less. Ironically, both Pacino and Tomei have played Cuban characters on film. Think about that one for a second…

          Either way, Depressing story to read about.

      2. Robert, interesting theory. I have pondered such an “Arabized” Near Eastern pseudo-Mediterranean connection myself.

        You have lived amongst Latin Americans, am I correct? With the obvious Europe-Latin connection aside, do you see much similarity with Arabs and other Near Easterners, for example?

        I have had this pointed out to me by some Latinos, usually South Americans. I also lived amongst Arabs, Catholic ones at that, so I have my own theories about this. There is sort of a “feel” there that I have never been able to get over. A degree of mindset and commonality, at least to a limited extent. A connection of sorts.

        For instance, I have seen this amongst Armenians and Latinos, while growing up in Los Angeles. Not that they like each other per say, but a strange understanding.

        Hope I am not going off topic…

        1. It’s ok. I wrote about the Pakistan-Peruvian Axis here. I think maybe I should write more about it.

          Let me know what you think…

          Armenians may well be somewhat Arabized. Their music and cuisine is very Middle Eastern and similar to Greek cuisine. And a lot of them refuse to identify as White and line right up with the non-Whites, especially the Hispanics, at the universities.

          The Armenians around here are very old school, and the women are for the most part untouchable, as they only go for Armenian guys. A lot of them still speak Armenian and read and write it. Lot of connections with the old country, and they go back and forth a lot. We also have a lot Iranian Christians here, who it turns out around here anyway, are entirely Armenian (Armenian Orthodox).

          I see Armenians as ancient Whites.

  2. Robert,

    Just because her name may be of Sicilian origin doesn’t guarantee she is 100% Sicilian. There are plenty of mestizos and mulattoes with Spanish and Portuguese surnames.

    Her phenotype is more representative of the Middle East than West Mediterranean.

    1. If you check her FB page, she has friends with the same last name on Italian FB. The friends’ pages are all in Italian, and they are currently residing in Italy. A good guess is that she is still close to relatives who still reside in Italy. Further, she has favorited a FB group that is written entirely in Italian. This implies that she may even speak Italian. A good guess is that she retains strong connections with the old country.

      The phenotype is actually Sicilian. I know a Sicilian girl not far from here around her age who could be a dead ringer for this girl.

    2. I researched her people in Italy. They go back to Albania and Greece. The Albanians of the line were all Greek Albanians. IOW, she’s Greek from Albania moved to Sicily. Then I researched the Greek communities where her people came from in Greece and Albania. No Near East input. They’re pure Greeks. They go back to the four classic tribes of Ancient Greece.

    1. Well, it’s hard to say. If you look White and you act White, you’re White. Around here we have large numbers of White Hispanics who have no obvious Indian features in their phenotype. It’s clear to me that these are White Hispanics or White Mexicans. We have a very large number of these White Mexicans right here in this town. Many are just as White as I am, and if you ask them, they will tell you that they have ancestry going back to Iberia.

      If you look White and you act White, you’re White.

      What’s wrong with that, anyway?

  3. She doesn’t look like any white person I know and grew up with.
    To me she is plainly not white – I don’t care what you say Mr. Lindsay, she’s not ‘one of us’ (from your photo Robert, you are definitely white).
    It’s not just her dusky skin, it’s the full complement of features, as I say she just doesn’t look like the people I grew up with and instinctively recognise as ‘kin’.
    I don’t think she is fully Italian or perhaps only has the slightest smidgeon of Italian blood.The word ‘Mexican’ screams out at me – and possibly east Indian. ‘Mandala’ is a Sanskrit word meaning ‘circle’ or as commonly used a ‘sacred diagram’.

    1. She doesn’t appear Mexican to me. She doesn’t have a Mexican nose. She has a Med nose, in particular, a Sicilian Italian nose. Nor does she have Mexican Asiatic eyes. She has Italian-looking eyes. The rest of her features look quite Italian too. Nor does she appear East Indian either. Those people have phenotypes that are quite different from that.

      You guys are just seeing the olive skin and it’s making you hallucinate all sorts of stuff.

      I don’t know about her whole family background, but it’s certainly possible that she’s pure Italian.

    2. Here in the US, Sicilians who look like this are generally considered to be White and are welcomed in White society by most folks, with a few outlier exceptions who say that they are non-Whites. Prejudice against Sicilians vanished 70 years ago.

    3. You’re just thrown off because she clearly went to the tanning bed, like many American teenage girls. There are plenty of girls with features like hers that aren’t tan, and you probably wouldn’t look twice at them.

  4. If you look White and you act White, you’re White.

    What’s wrong with that, anyway?

    Because it’s ambiguous and relative.

    This has never been used for any legal definition of White in America, it was always based on ancestry.

    1. Yes and no. Even thought there is, at least at the federal level, and outlined definition of the origin of who is “White,” ultimately self identification is the accepted norm. In other words, if you “feel” White, you get to be White, the legal definition be damned. Except in the most extreme situations, such as civil actions involving the EEOC and such. That can get ugly. 🙂

  5. smartest girl in the class means shit.

    My retarded cousin could pass off as the smartest girl in her class.

    1. lol, wow, no mercy on your cousin.

      It’s unfortunate that she lost her life. Why do I get the feeling that she probably felt bad for these “impoverished” illegal immigrants, hence her crazy actions?

  6. Robert,
    I don’t want to seem patronising or pompous, but I really don’t know what sort oF Italians you take your measure from.
    When I think of Italian faces, I think of people like Victor Mature, Tony Bennett, the boxer Rocky Marciano, Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, Joe Pesce etc they all have that undefinable ‘Italianate’ look to them – you know as seen in classical art – and bordering on the semitic in features (this is where they differ from other Europeans), but the features are sharper and not as exaggerrated as Semites – and were held as the classical standard for ‘good looks’.
    Think of the portrait busts of the Roman emperors (in particular the evil Caracalla for a real Italian face), think of the faces in Renaissance classical art, of Michaelangelo’s David, the sistine chapel, the bearded handsome faces on Trajan’s column – you know you will get the ‘gist’ of the classic Italian face, angular, sharp features, well proportioned ‘open’ face, wide clear eyes and overall ‘clean’ and bony look – not ill-defined and fleshy like the Anglo-Saxon.
    Think like an artist for once Robert.
    Of Italian female faces, think of Sophia Loren – her typically Italianate features are exaggerrated to the point of caricature, so that’s a good place to start to see what is typically Italian and female,
    Claudia Cardinale represents the female Italian archetype – that’s what the typical Italian woman looks like, perhaps not as beautiful though.
    Ann Bancroft is another typical Italian.
    But, I’ve never, ever seen an Italian woman remotely resemble Elisabeth Mandala.
    To my eyes she doesn’t even look European.

    1. I admit I’m not expert on Italian phenotype, but I do have to say that I would never have guessed her to be Italian. I’d have guessed either a mestiza or N. African. Then again she wears her hair and makeup in a way that’s popular with many Mexican girls, so it gives her kind of a Mexican look.

      Also keep in mind that Italians of the north and of the south look somewhat different. I’ve met Italian from the north that have blonde hair, green eyes and more “nordic” features. In college, I sat next to an Italian girl whose family was from the north of Italy, I would always joke and say she looked exactly like Botticelli’s venus, and she literally did. Same hair, eye color, face shape and all. She was quite beautiful.

      http://dreamingradiance.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/venus-botticelli.jpg

      1. Hmmm, tulio. I immediately thought that she was White, but the article I read was on a WN site that stated that she was White. The author had received an email from someone in the know stating that she was White. I realized that she looked somewhat Hispanic, but something did not seem right about that. Also, we have a lot of Meds around here, and I’ve seen Sicilian girls who look a lot like this. That’s what sent me off to research her family name.

        Now, all we know is that her Dad has a Sicilian name. They’ve been in Texas for 75-125 years, and it’s possible that they may have married in with Hispanics. However, that she apparently spoke Italian and had relatives in Italy who she kept in close contact with tends to argue against that.

    2. I do not think that you are right, Freud. On several sites, including *Stormfront*, people suggested that she might be Italian, because they knew one or more Italian girls that they had grown up with who looked a lot like her.

      Romans were not Sicilians. Sicilians can be quite dark. Lot of Greek, Albanian, Spaniard, Arab, Berber and Lebanese genes in Sicily.

      Keep in mind that you live in the UK, and I don’t think you have much experience with Meds there. Not like we do, where Meds make up a large percentage of the population.

  7. Robert,
    I am willingly to as far as to stake my entire reputation on the fact that she is NOT ITALIAN.
    I know an Italian face when I see one and I state categorically that she isn’t Italian.
    I am certain on this point.I have no doubts whatsoever – to me its like the difference between chalk and cheese.

    1. Are you basing that on just her looks, Freud? Because if you are, then that’s a very, very bold statement. I mean, there is even a probability that you can find English women that look like that, however rare it may be. She looks Mediterranean, period.

      I went to a mostly all Italian elementary and high school, and I have seen several Italian girls with similar phenotypes.

  8. Robert, I like your concept of a “Pakistan-Peruvian Axis of Arabized peoples”.
    That’s a very interesting idea. And yes there could be something very “Arabized” about her. There’s a vague something that could be Egyptian, right across to India.

    But I would NOT have taken her for Sicilian — however, I will not attempt to argue with your research. Perhaps you are right. Even so, you do admit yourself that her group (if such it really is) came to Sicily from the East and thus is not really that “Sicilian” indigenously. Of course, this is all speculation. An additional factor is that she is quite likely of some mixed ancestry, which inevitably would complicate things greatly.

    Another point is that Sicilians are quite different from Italians, and many Italians don’t even consider them to be the same as themselves. I’m sure you know that. And the language and customs are different. Also, Sicilians comprise a variety of very different ethnicities that went into the island’s population makeup — fromn Arabs to Vikings. It was always a crossroads of the Mediterranean; and In Roman times it was populated with slaves imported from all parts of the empire (doubtless a great many from Carthage). For a good part of its history it’s been attached more closely to Africa than to Europe.

    Still, just visually, I would not have taken her for Sicilian, and even less for Italian. (But I could be wrong.) Sorry, Robert, but I tend to agree with Freud on this. And Observer and Mark. Also, the name “Mandala” is not TYPICAL of Italy/Sicily, although it could be an unusual name. (The English language has all sorts of strange, anomalous names too.) But Mandala is far more typical of India than Italy. And as for her eyes, yes, I can see the almond shape there, not at all unlike India. I do agree, however, that I would NOT take her for Mexican. I see nothing of Mexico in her. I don’t see how those people can claim she is a mestiza. I think they are utterly wrong.

    Let me add that I knew a Jewish woman, whose ancestry was from Galicia in Austria/Poland, whose features were very much like hers: same nose and chin and cheek bones especially. She was of a lighter complexion, but the same features were there, as well as the small stature. Even the actress Julia Louis-Dreyfus has a similar nose, come to think of it. And she looks recognizably Jewish. Not strongly, but a bit.

    These genes hasve been all scrambled up over the centuries, and it’s hard to sort them out. Especially in what I once saw described as “the racially chaotic Mediterranean”. [so well put! I forget the author] Needless to say, here in America, they’ve probably gotten even more scrambled.

    As for whether she’s “white’, well I would say she’s borderline. I’d have to include her with Caucasians (if not Europeans) because she fits no other category .. just as Egyptians and East Indians are dark Caucasians. She’s certainly not Negro. As for Sicily, which you insist is European…..it too is a borderline territory, and it could be considered North African just as well as Southern European. Not that North Africans aren’t Caucasians either.

    Regarding the interesting observations about Armenia being Arabized — that is possible, but I suspect that the food, culture, and customs were there long before the Arabs. It was just the general Middle Eastern/Western Asian culture that probably went back long before the arrival of Arabs and Islam. They were probably eating the same foods in the court of Darius. It was the Arabs who wwould have learned from them. Just my guess.

    One other thing, Robert — please don’t take disagreement so personally. There is no need to feel offended by those with differing views. They mean no harm.

    1. Yes, they came from further East, but they were Greeks living in Albania and Greece. The Mandala Greek line goes back to Greece – one of the four main tribes of Classical Ancient Greece, to be precise.

        1. Yup. Both the Phoenicians(Early Lebanese?) and ancient Greeks really got around the Mediterranean, living their mark. Maybe that goes to explain a lot of both the cultural and prototypical similarities we see today?

  9. “there is even a probability that you can find English women that look like that, however rare it may be. She looks Mediterranean, period.” –CarGuy

    That is possible, but not probabe, or at least very “rare” as you say. Certainly it’s not a typical English look. But there are always rarities and exceptions.

    In fact, when I took a tour of Italy, we had a guide who looked just like this girl and was VERY dark (for an Englishwoman, that is). She said she was “English”. I never questioned it or probed into her family background. Left to my own guesses, I would have taken her to be one of the “Asians” who have taken up residence there, or even more llikely a cross breed: English-Indian. She said she had come to Italy as a teenager (to study Italian, I guess), fell in love with it, married, and remained there ever since. Neverless, she described herself as English, though you’d never guess it (except from her speech). I didn’t argue.

    I also once worked with a Dominican woman, a light mulatta, who had a sister who married and settled in Sicily. Apparently, she fit right in there.

    Even so, I would never mistake Sicilians for mulattos. They are, on the whole, much fairer than that “English” guide we had.

  10. Robert, it appears that you were entirely right about the Sicilian origin of the name. As far as her genes, though, I hesitate to guess. In checking ancestry.com, I find that “Mandala” is a name of Arabic origin, and is centered around Palermo in Sicily. (Sicily was, of course, under Arab/Saracen rule at one time.) Unlike the Hindustani name, it has the accent on the last sylable in Sicilian. (Man-dah- LAH)

    There is also a second possible Greek derivation: meaning a seller of shawls. Probably a cognate of the Spanish word “mantilla”.

    At any rate, it apparently is a rare name. Certainly it is here. Of the Mandala’s listed in the 1920 census, the state with the most was New York, with only five. Pennsylvania had four. Texas had three. Most states had none.

    Another thing is that we can’t rule out the possibility of further mixing in America. There’s no telling if she’s pure Sicilian; and if she’s like most other Americans, she’s probably not.

    I suspect that many Sicilians would be embarassed by her, as most Sicilians I’ve known are a good deal lighter than that — and proud of it too! They can be quite race-conscious, and are more unabashedly “racist” than any other nationalities I’ve known in the US. They don’t even pretend to be tolerant.

    So then, is she Caucasian? Yes, without question. But is she a European white? Well, that gets debatable… Most whites wouldn’t think of her as their kind.

    1. I totally agree that there could have been further mixing once in Texas. However, I’m wondering about this, since apparently she spoke Italian! And also she was quite tight with some of the Mandalas back in the Old Country. So I doubt they mixed all that much. However, in the past 70 years or so in the US, the Mandalas have been mixing a lot with non-Italians (I looked in registries and geneology histories). But they’ve mostly been mixing with what appear to be regular Anglo-Saxon Whites. One Mandala married an Hispanic in Texas in 1941, but that can’t be her line.

      Here in California, girls like that are mysterious and we are not quite sure what they are. Most think they are Hispanic, but if you ask them politely, they will tell you that they are Italian (presumably Sicilian). At that point, everyone just considers them White. I’ve seen a number of Sicilians who have skin tone about that dark. That’s really just an olive skin, and it’s pretty common in the region. Plus I bet she was out in the sun a lot, since she liked to ride horses.

  11. Robert, have you ever actually been to Italy?
    – No obfuscation or question dodging please, have you ver actually visited Italy?
    I have vacationed over there many times.

    1. The mystery is solved.

      It turns out she is half Hispanic and half Sicilian. Still, I would imagine that she is maybe 85% White, because her Mom is probably 70% White I bet. 85% White counts as White in Latin America.

  12. Robert, if your ideas about what Italians look like are confused (and to my mind you haven’t got a clue – and I don’t wish to seem patronising, just honest), I suggest that you are best served by going onto a photographic daabse such as Google images, or a better, professional site, and try to form a more intelligent, grown-up opinion on the subject of ethnic facial physignominies (my old Dad could infallibly identify any European nationality – especially Jews, in a 1 second glance).
    The subject is far, far, far more complex and subtle than you seem to think, to you, ‘tan skin’ = Italian.No, no, no, no – it’s the facial bone structure, which in the most archetypal Italians is very distinct (think of classical statuary, Rock Marciano, Tony Bennett, Claudia Cardinale etc), or even talk to the old boys who fought through Italy in WW2.
    To repeat myself, an Italian face is distinct in itself, it’s NOT just the black hair and eyes and olive skin you know, just as an Irish face is distinct in another way (now, I wonder if you can ‘spot the Irishman’, unfailingly?).
    At the risk of being pedantic, Italians tend to the look of Ashkenazi Jews more than other Europeans do, to the extent that certain of both ethnicities cannot readily be distinguished except by ‘experts’.Only that Italians are generally more handsome, and the ‘open-type’ face type is more prevalent.
    Peter Falk, ‘Columbo’, Italian or Jewish?, could be either (and I WOULD take him for an Italian), but in fact he’s an Hungarian Jew.

    1. I think you are fishing for exceptions. Jewish folks well, look Jewish so to speak. Same goes for Italians, etc.

      I think the earlier point was the difference in Italian-American phenotypes, stretching from Northern Italy to Sicily.

      1. I’m not fishing for exceptions.
        The ‘cast’ of features commonly tought of as ‘Jewish’,(ie black hair, eyes, sallow skin, strong aquiline nose), is quite a common deme amongst Italians, but it is by no means the only deme found there – more dominant is a peculiarly ‘Italianate’ look, which is commonly held to be handsome, perhaps best typified by such people as soccer players David Ginola, Roberto Bettega, Francesco Totti and for females Monica Belluci and Claudia Cardinale etc – perhaps best described as a certain combination of eyes, cheekbones, chin etc, to give a kind of ‘open’ sensuous face.
        On the other hand there are many Italians who resemble Danny De Vito, or the late Pope Paul. If you didn’t know Danny De Vito was Italian, you would certainly guess him as Jewish.
        On a similar theme, how many can distinguish a Spaniard from an Italian? by Spaniard, of course, I mean a real Iberian, not one of those south American hybrids who call themselves ‘Spanish’. The Spanish are close to the Italians, but there is a subtle difference.The Portuguese differe markedly.
        The real southern French were of the same race as the Italians.

        1. aquiline nose

          “On a similar theme, how many can distinguish a Spaniard from an Italian? by Spaniard, of course, I mean a real Iberian, not one of those South American hybrids who call themselves ‘Spanish’. The Spanish are close to the Italians, but there is a subtle difference.The Portuguese differe markedly. The real southern French were of the same race as the Italians.”

          Those South American hybrids probably don’t call themselves “Spanish” so much as we call them that. I think we are the ones who are most guilty, since many Americans casually assume that anyone who speaks Spanish is “Spanish”. Well, in Panama, the white Spanish-speakers of the West coast call the English-speaking Negroes of the East coast “English”. So they do it too! This is became so many of the latter came to Panama from the West Indies to work on the Canal. And they call themselves “English”, or at least used to.

          There is always confusion about who you are (ethnically) and where you come from. But that doesn’t justify mistaking a French-speaking Haitian as “French”. However, with whites, where the distinctions are less clear and obvious, there is more confusion.

          I’ve spent quite some time in Spain and Portugal. I was surprised to notice that the Spaniards are lighter than the Italians. Of course, this is just a generalization and there are a variety of Spanish types (as with Italians too), but that was my observation.

          I also noted the difference between the Spanish and Portuguese. I was surprised to find ANY difference, assuming them both to be the same stock of people. But the Portuguese tend to be both darker and shorter than the Spanish. Just slightly. I noted this difference right at the border going into Spain where, for the first time I saw blonds; and the people were taller and ruddier. I spent a couple of months in Portugal and never saw any blonds (natural ones, and not tourists).

          Venturing my own guess, I would ascribe this to the fact that Portugal was re-conquered earlier, whereas the Spanish “Reconquista” went on for several more centuries. So far as I am aware, the indigenous population in Portugal remained but was re-converted back to Christianity, with no doubt a lot of Moorish blood in the gene pool. In Spain, the conquest was more ruthless, and thorough, and the Moorish population was driven out (sometimes enslaved) and the land re-populated with fresh stock from Northern Spain. I believe this re-population did not happen in Brutal, and you can see it in the faces of the people. In Spain today – even in the southernmost areas, around Malaga, you will find blonds and ruddy faces. Of course, you will also find more Mediterranean physical types too. Due to its history, there is a lot of variety in Iberia. However, the Portuguese seem amazingly uniform. But in Spain, at least in the later phases of the reconquest, most of the Arab/Moorish population (or much of it) was expelled. This was not a uniform approach, however, and varied from place to place. The Province of Murcia is said to retain the most Moorish blood and customs. It is also interesting to note, as was pointed out to me, that Murcia has the highest crime rate in Spain. Generally, the Spaniards — in my own experience and by reputation — are extremely honest. and honorable people.

          I know some people will accuse the above as being a “racist” comment. Well, tough! It’s just a statistic.

          The Southern French originally had very little to do with the Northern French. France is really an artificial creation pieced together over the centuries by the kings of France, ruling from Paris and establishing that as the center. For more than a thousand years, the original Counts of Paris, starting with Hugh Capet, nibbled at their neighbors, enlarging their domains, making Paris the center of power. Southern “France” was then independent. Catalonia was a kingdom with its capital at Perpignan, and the County of Toulouse as well are Provence were conquered in the Cathar wars and subordinated to the North in 1229. Gradually, by marriage, war, or inheritance, Brittany, Burgundy, Flanders, come into the kingdom, all with very distinct populations. French was not even recognized as the official language (replacing Latin) until the royal edict of 1539. There wasn’t even such a title as “King of France” until it was first used by Philip IV about 1300. The ruler previously was known as “King of the Franks” [Rex Francorum] …. king of a tribe, not a territory. That remained the title on coinage until 1606. and he papacy continued to use it until 1740.

          There was originally no country known as “France” either. There was West Frankia, as opposed to East Frankia (or Franconia, now Germany). Originally, there was a King of the Franks (Clovis, Dagobert), and then Charlemagne, ruler of the Frankish Empire. But no “France”. Thus, the definition was OVER WHOM they ruled, not what TERRITORY .

          My point in all of this is to say that it is hard to say who is “French”. It could be an Alsatian, a Catalan or Basque, a Fleming, a Provencal , etc…… France is an artificial agglomeration that has been created by the central power in Paris. For that reason, they have the historical emphasis on the French language which has been used (politically) as a binder to hold the country together. This has not been the case in some other countries such as England which have (at least historically) a more homogenous population.

          Same thing with Portugal, whose population is extremely homogenous. But Spain is however, like France, a unification of many disparate parts that came together over many centuries under the crown of Castile. Portugal was, in fact, absorbed into Spain for 60 years, but broke away and resumed its independence in 1640. Catalonia [Barcelona, Valencia] has tried repeatedly to do the same, but without smiliar success. The difference was that Portugal had an English alliance which guaranteed her independence from Castile.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ppcc2007english_2_mediterranean.png
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pa%C3%AFsos_Catalans

        2. Well Freud, I don’t see much similarity. In fact, none of the Jewish kids I grew up around had particularly dark features, or looked Italian. Lot of redheads, in fact. The only kids that looked Italian, were in fact, Italian.

          Also, this whole “handsome” thing you keep repeating is kinda creeping me out.

      2. I often confuse Italians and Jews. A friend tells me that they look nothing at all alike, but I think they do. He says that Armenians look more like Ashkenazi Jews than any existing group. I think he may be onto something.

        1. You know, since the Armenians are such a group in diaspora, I have noticed that those Armenians from Lebanon, Syria and Armenia proper do have more of that “look” as you put it. I could easily see them being confused as say Jewish in Los Angeles. Especially with recent Russian Jewish immigrants.

          Me, everyone thinks I am either Italian or Jewish, and I am neither. Not even close. Get it all the time, though. Especially from East Coast folks.

      1. What is doubly funny is I now an American girl of direct Mexican decent(both of here parents) that looks just like her. Just goes to show…

  13. I think that I can settle this momentous question. Mandala is a Portuguese surname and Elizabeth is from Sri Lanka. Q.E.D.
    Cheers. James

  14. To Rob:

    They’ve been in Texas for 75-125 years, and it’s possible that they may have married in with Hispanics.

    Elizabeth’s mother’s name is Paula Benitez Mandala :

    http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2010_05_01_archive.html

    “Mandala had been a stripper and wanted to smuggle immigrants, according to a missing persons report her mother filed with Houston police, the Houston Chronicle reported on its website Wednesday. The report quotes Paula Benitez Mandala as describing her 18-year-old daughter’s activities, the paper said.”

  15. Aren’t alot of white Americans technically mestizo? It seems like every other person in this country, white or black, claims to be descend from the Cherokee?

      1. To Bay Area Guy:

        There are reasons many whites try to claim American Indian heritage.

        Absolutely true.. it’s quite fashionable.. but that said quite a few Whites in places like Oklahoma, the Dakotas, and parts of the Southeast have some Native American admixture.

    1. Yes they are. That’s why this whole discussion is insane. Clearly, a *majority* of Whites in the US are part Indian. I would say that it’s the vast majority, at that. If you go down South, most of the Whites down there will proudly tell you that they are 1/4 Cherokee, 1/8 Cherokee, etc. No one ever says they are not White as a result. I think we may need to go to a Latin American definition of Whiteness soon because so many US Whites have Indian blood. In Latin America, 3/4 – 7/8 White is generally sufficient to prove Whiteness.

      This whole White purity thing is just insane in an American context anyway.

      1. What’s interesting is that many whites almost boast about being part Cherokee. However you’d never hear them proudly claiming to be part black if they had a distant black ancestor.

  16. The original definition of Mestizo in the Spanish caste system was a child from an Amerindian and European parents (1/2 Indian 1/2 White). They has a specific term for people who were 1/2 Mestizo and 1/2 European (Castizo..)

    I think the modern usage (which would offensive to some people as would be say Mulatto…) would describe someone who is visually noticeably, part Amerindian.

    I have heard estimates of some Amerindian and/or African ancestry for about 15% t0 30% of the Americans who identify as White.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American#Admixture

    1. Given that 30% of US Whites have *Black* in them, the % with Indian blood must be much higher than that. I can trace my line back to Pocohontas. But that only makes me ~1/3,000 Amerindian. Clearly, the vast majority of US Whites must be part Indian.

  17. See this is the Problem with Race Mr. Lindsay how can we categorize people into something that is obviously social in nature. I live in San Antonio, Texas a place that is about Majority White Anlgo and Mexican Hispanic, and about 9% black(My “Race”) In San Antonio as well as Houston and Im sure Sugarland this Girl would be “Hispanic” not white. To me I have heard many instances of Italians being mistaken for Hispanics by Racist whites. This Proves that Race is more social than biological in nature, if a Racist white mistakes a Italian(Probably the Leaders and innovators of Early European Culture) for a Hispanic then that is really a blow to Racist dogma.

    Although I tend to agree with Mr. Lindsay on his “non racist race realism” idea I think too much emphasis on race is problematic. For example My Father has Green Eyes, Light Skin, Im brown eyed medium tone. My cousin when she was born the Doctors who did her Birth Information was mistaken for and labeled white, and her mother is quite dark skinned. These are just some personal observations that make me question the concept of race, although Mr. Lindsay’s approach is quite honest and thoughtful.

    1. Well, here in California, it is quite common to mistake Italians for Hispanics. It happens all the time. No one really cares, and the Italians don’t get mad, because the Hispanics are everywhere.

      1. True. Hell, my sister is marrying a guy who’s family is from Central America. Everyone thinks he is “Persian.” People try to speak to him in it all the time. He is not offended, because that is just Southern California for you.

  18. “Elizabeth’s mother’s name is Paula Benitez Mandala “

    Aha! That explains a lot. Thank you. I was even speculating on the possibility of them being Sicilian Gypsies. A bit far-fetched, maybe, but her looks certainly aren’t very “Italian”, and her morals seem even less so. There was just something not quite “Sicilian” about her. No good Sicilian family is going to allow its teenage daughter to go off, alone, to Mexico to (ahem) “meet someone”. They keep a pretty strict hold on their daughters and tend to have old-fashioned morals about these things. As Robert said above, “Sicilian culture is said to be quite Arab, not to mention the language.”

    But in her case, the Benitez name in the family explains a lot. And there doesn’t even seem to be a father figure anywhere in the picture. Would a strict Sicilian father allow his high school daughter to work as an “exotic dancer” (i.e. stripper) and go frolicking off to Mexico to “learn” the art of smuggling? (A Gypsy father might, though, providing she’s bringing in the money.)

    As Robert explains in his detailed history, the Mandalas “came from the same small village in Sicily. Santa Cristina Gela is actually an Arbëreshë village in Sicily near Palermo. The Arbëreshë are colonies of Albanians who moved to Italy around 800 years ago. They speak dialects of Arbëreshë, which at this point is now a separate language from Italian.”

    So they “came from farther East” fleeing the Ottomans. That sounds a lot like Gypsies….well, similar anyway. And “Arbereshe” sounds more akin to Arabic than Albanian. I accept that they were Albanians; but it’s worth saying that the Albanians have a sort of bandit culture, and are a lot like Gypies in many ways, especially their clannish view of insiders vs. outsiders, and their casual attitude to what most people consider morals and ethics.

    “At the risk of being pedantic, Italians tend to the look of Ashkenazi Jews more than other Europeans do, to the extent that certain of both ethnicities cannot readily be distinguished except by ‘experts’.Only that Italians are generally more handsome, and the ‘open-type’ face type is more prevalent.
    Peter Falk, ‘Columbo’, Italian or Jewish?, could be either (and I WOULD take him for an Italian), but in fact he’s an Hungarian Jew.”
    — FREUD

    I agree. Some Italians [SOME, that is!] can easily be confused with Jews, and vice versa. Not only is the Mediiterranean region “racially chaotic”, but the Romans imported huge numbers of slaves, including many Jews after the conquest of Jerusalem. (Doubtless the Carthagenians did too. And Sicily was right next to Carthage.) Sicily was always a crossroads. Also, in the Middle Ages, there were forced conversions in which most of Italy’s Jewish population was absorbed (by assimilation).

    Distinguishing them is also — as Freud says — by no means just a matter of skin color. You have a huge amount of variety in Italy. I vividly remember an occasion on the NY subway, going to the beach at Coney Island, observing a group of young Italians sitting across from another group of “African-Americans” (the now popular term, but not then). I couldn’t help noticing that some of the Italians were DARKER than the so-called “blacks” (or I could say the “blacks” were lighter than the Italians). Yet there was no question as to who was Negroid and who was European. The Italians were Caucasian. The features, the hair, gave them away. (Needless to say, too, the Italian boys would have been infuriated if anybody suggested that they were not white. And I would agree with them [the Italians].)

    1. No, her people are not Gypsies. They were Greeks living in Albania who moved to Sicily and then spoken Albanian (Arbareshe) in Sicily. Arbareshe is just a diverse dialect of Albanian that has been separated so long in Italy that it is a separate language. In Albania, her people were Greeks living in Albania, and I traced them back to one of the four classical tribes of Ancient Greece.

      You are right that Sicilians can be quite dark. I have known Sicilians that were easily as dark as this girl. However, they are very sensitive to being called Black. My Italian friend told me that if you call them “negri,” they will “pull out the knife!” I would not call a Sicilian Black if I were you.

  19. “Aren’t alot of white Americans technically mestizo? It seems like every other person in this country, white or black, claims to be descend from the Cherokee?”
    Sometimes it seems that way. It’s very faddish now to be anything but white. And now it’s become profitable too. Whiteness is out. But this fad began many years ago; when I was a child it was already under way. I think it started right after WW2.

    But how much Indian “blood” does it take to make a mestizo? One-hundreth? One-thousandth? Where do we draw the line? This nonsense can get really ridiculous when carried “ad absurdum”.

    1. Well, we really ought to go to a Latin American view of White pretty soon here in the US. In general, if you look White, act White and are anywhere from 3/4 – 7/8 White, you get to claim White in Latin America. Seems sensible to me. The Third Position Party classes Whites as at least 7/8 White, or at least one of their founders did in an earlier document. This White purity shit is just insane in a US context.

      1. The main problem I see with the “if you look white” thing is that when you are dealing with a population with mixture in their genepool such as black Americans and Latinos, you’ll often have one sibling that looks like a different mixture from the other. I know two Mexican sisters, one looks like a white Latina or very close to it, the other looks like a mestiza. So it’s kind of weird to call one kid white and call the other a mestizo based on looks. Actually I know another woman that you would consider white without a second glance and her parents are both more mestizo looking and her sister somewhat more mestizo in appearance than her.

        So I’m not sure how to address that issue.

        1. Yeah, I was just thinking of that today.

          I guess if the mestiza has 3/4 or 7/8 White ancestry, she can claim White. Might be an interesting question to go ask the guys in the Latin American section of Stormfront. They said White identity was based either on appearance or on ancestry – usually 3/4 – 7/8 required.

          In Latin America, a lot of times, you don’t even have a White – non-White divide. I was talking to this Peruvian woman recently and I commented that she looked pretty White. “Yes,” she said. “My mother was very White.” See? She didn’t say, “My mother was White.” She said she was “very White.”

          So there isn’t so much a White – non-White binary distinction but instead more of a Latin American colorism sort of thing, whereby, in general, lighter is better and darker is not so good, but people aren’t really White, Black, or Indian so much as they are shades in between.

          Actually, that makes a lot more sense, because as we get more and more mixed here in the US, this White purity shit is going to make less and less sense.

        2. Certainly though, I would make the case that 100% of the native Caucasians of Europe are White, no questions asked. That’s Stormfront’s position, and if you are argue with that, you’re crazier than Stormfront, and that’s pretty bad. However, Stormfront does disallow Jews and Gypsies from their Pan-Europeanism. I think disallowing Jews is nuts, but these guys have ideological reasons for cutting Jews out.

          As far as Gypsies, we ought to go on appearances. I’ve met some of them, and all the ones I met so far were White people. They looked kind of like Meds, with olive skin, but they don’t look non-White either. But if they really look East Indian, we will probably have to remove them from European Whiteness.

          A lot of people want to ban Gypsies from Whiteness based on behavior, but I don’t think that makes sense. We have lots of bad actors in our people, in the past, in the present, and we will in the future. Just because some Whites act like scumbags is no reason to deny Whiteness to them. We’ve always had our White trash, mass murderers, etc.

          It’s quite clear that Columbus, Pizarro, Custer, Stalin and Hitler were White people.

        3. This Whiteness is starting to sound like one hell of a commodity. It can be granted, denied, removed, allowed, and so forth.

        4. Come to think of it, you’re completely right about the “very white” think. I’ve heard them say that many times but they always stop short of calling themselves white. They never do because it’s an important part of their ethnic identity to distinguish themselves from white Americans. So a white Latino will say “I’m not white, I’m Latino” as if the two were contradictory. Many of them are very confused on the race vs ethnicity thing.

          Now what I wonder is do they say “muy indio” or “muy negro” to describe people that look very indigenous or black? Or do the just call them Indian or black?

        5. Unfortunately, they don’t say that they are very Indio. I don’t know about very Black. I know three Peruvians, all three very dark. All three identify strictly as mestizas. One I am almost sure is pure Indian, but I was told that she was mestiza too. In Peru, you take off your Indian shawl, move to the city, quit speaking Quechua and start speaking Spanish, and you automagically turn into a mestiza.

          Just like that. It’s “social race.” There is a strong tendency to deny Indianness and instead embrace mestizaje in Latin America. As long as you’re obviously not really White, they just go ahead and say they are mestizos. Most people are mestizos anyway, so it’s not big deal to be a mestizo. But being an Indian seems like it’s pretty bad, at least in Peru.

          As far as Black goes, I don’t know. I’ve never known any Latin Americans who were part Black. I briefly knew a couple of Caribbeans who were full Black, and they just admitted it.

          And yes, I have known some Mexicans who were as White as I am, and they denied they were White. They said, “I’m Mexican.” I told them they were White Mexicans, and some embrace that, but others still say, “I’m Mexican, not White.” Weird thing. But there are other White Mexicans who very much embrace Whiteness.

          They are closely connected to Spain, have relatives there, and will tell you proudly that their roots are in Spain. They will also often tell you that they speak the pure Spanish from Spain and the Mexicans speak crap Spanish. They definitely feel superior!

  20. To CarGuy:

    I think Bay Area Guy was thinking of financial reasons (i.e. tax reasons).

    There are some tribes with close proximity to Urban areas that have done quite well because their tribe was able to setup a casino. (Gambling is illegal in much of the US with the exception of what would be considered tribal in some places..) But it would be quite difficult to be declared a member of one of those tribes if you are a White wanna be Indian. Basically the fewer Native Americans per casino, the more money there is for each tribal member. Before the casinos were introduced many of these tribes were in dire poverty. You would have had to have been a pretend Indian well before the casino came along and been a registered tribal member to make that work.

    I am pretty sure you don’t get any tax breaks as an individual if you are considered Native American, but you can be considered for affirmative action benefits such as easier entry to Universities, scholarships, and special consideration for business that sells good and services to government entities.

    An example of what I would consider a phenotypically White guy taking advantage of these benefits is below :

    http://www.colorsofinfluence.com/2008/summer/Clyde-Stryker.html

    He may be a very decent fellow.. but at first (and second) glance I would call him White.

    As opposed to this fellow:
    http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2007/12/russell-means-s.html

    The hard reality is that many American Indians, especially in places like the Dakotas and Oklahoma are rather impoverished and suffer from high rates of alcoholism and other health problems.

    Where I grew up it was quite common to run into people that would be considered White but were basically 1/4 to 1/8 Native American.

    A famous American who has an American Indian grandparent is Tommy Lee Jones:
    http://www.heart-shapedworld.com/images/photos/celebs/tommy_lee_jones.jpg

    Although Mr. Jones is considered White I think it’s pretty clear, at least in some of his photos, that he has some Native American ancestry .

    1. I’ve been watching that guy for decades now and it never occurred to me that he might be part Indian. Now that I look at him, I can see how he might be, but it’s not totally obvious unless someone tells you.

      I worked for an Indian tribe and we had all kinds of Whites in the tribe. They really got into the Indian identity and got really mad if you pointed out they were White as the driven snow. A lot were blond and blue. Of course they got all that free stuff too. They may have thrown them out once they got that casino (they threw out about 1/2 the tribe).

  21. I can’t believe this has the longest thread, well, ever. I’ll tell you what Elizabeth Mandala was. She was a stupid b***h. Or a typical teenager who took risks that ended up killing her. You can either say she got what she deserved, or you can feel bad for her.

    This whole thing sums up what I just flat out don’t get about WNs and racial nationalists. You get this pornographic joy out of speculating about people’s level of racial purity, and you’ve just *got* to know about it in detail before you decide how to feel about a given situation. You look pathetic. And not in a good way, but in a rabid dog sort of way.

    1. Yeah, that was exactly what I was thinking, Mort. It’s sickening. If it was a White girl, OMG, what a tragedy! If she was non-White, oh well, fuck that bitch and good riddance, she’s probably burning in Hell. Good Lord man.

  22. To Mort Goldman:

    I’ll tell you what Elizabeth Mandala was. She was a stupid b***h. Or a typical teenager who took risks that ended up killing her. You can either say she got what she deserved, or you can feel bad for her.

    I did some seriously dumb shit in my teens and twenties. I feel bad for her, her family, and her friends. I agree that it is irrelevant as to her ethnicity, 18 is way to young to die.

    1. Same here. I should be dead tens times over. Hell, I still do stupid shit in my 30’s, and I actually know better now. At age 18, forget it. You know just enough about life to end up like this girl did. That is what makes it so sad.

  23. Further evidence that Italians are not very white. Not as white as me. Much much less white than the hipsters in Williamsburg.

  24. I say amen to Mort Goldman. This girl may have been foolish, but she certainly didn’t deserve to die. She is an American, and it is sad to see how WNs will not feel solidarity with her if she isn’t what they consider white. It goes to show again that WNs are bad Americans because they are determined to exclude a lot of Americans from their circle of solidarity.
    Mixing race and nationality is a very bad idea, just as bad as mixing religion and nationality. To take the position that only whites can be real Americans is just as discriminatory and exclusionary as saying that only Protestants can be Americans.
    Regards. James

    1. I don’t recall anyone saying she deserved to die. (Certainly, I didn’t!) However, it can’t be denied that she asked for it. That’s her fault, not ours.

      We don’t feel solidarity with her, however, not because she is or isn’t “white” but because she was engaged in criminal activity and seems to be an overall shady person. THAT is what got her killed, not her skin color.

      And who said that only white can be real Americans? Or Protestants either?
      You’re inserting things that were never there.

      Taking an interest in this girl’s background does not imply any condemnation on that point, just curiosity. She looks unusual and her name defies easy description. Myself, being interested in languages and anthropology, I am curious about everyone I meet. Especially those with more challenging or obscure identites or names. No harm in that! I have often been asked about my own, and I don’t resent that either. Not in the least. It is only normal for people to be curious about one another. What does that have to do with being “bad Americans”?

      Your post is maudlin nonsense!

    2. I agree with this completely James. WN’s either make me want to vomit or just infuriate me. The fact that there are even ready to write off a lot of Caucasians and even a lot of the native Caucasians of Europe shows me that this movement is going to be a total failure. If they can’t even agree that Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians, Serbs, Albanians, Greeks and Armenians are White, well, by God. That’s a White movement that is headed nowhere fast.

      It’s just terrible. When I was growing up, everyone just assimilated to this sort of Americanness, lost their immigrant cultures and languages, and everyone pretty much acted the same. Therefore, no one gave two shits about race, since, as long as everyone acts the same, who cares about race, anyway? This WN is totally anathema to the 90% White culture I was brought up in.

      My best friends were Mexican-Americans, 1/4 Cherokee, Puerto Rican, 1/2 Mexican, Greek, Italian, 1/4 Chinese, Cuban, 1/2 Cuban, Jewish, etc. That seems strange, but that was California in the 1970’s. The whole idea that I would only befriend pure Whites is bizarre.

    3. “I say amen to Mort Goldman. This girl may have been foolish, but she certainly didn’t deserve to die. She is an American, and it is sad to see how WNs will not feel solidarity with her “

      Well, I certainly DON’T say “amen” to that! Mr. Goldman is the only one here who called her a [quote] “stupid bitch”. No one else used such strong or hostile language. And then he comes across as defending her and accuses others of being “rabid dogs”?

      And what does being American have to do with “feeling solidarity” with her? Or with anything, for that matter? She was in Mexico to get involved with criminal activity. I don’t care what nationality she was in that case. She got what she herself had been asking for; we didn’t wish it on her. She put herself in that dangerous position. It was by her own doing and her own choice.

      Furthermore, there are plenty of criminals in America — are we supposed to “feel solidarity” with all of them, simply because we live on the same patch of territory? Is being American an excuse for anything? Now THAT’S prejudice!

      None of us can control the skin we were born with, but we ARE responsible for our own behavior. A shady person is just that ( and I’m not talking about skin). Their skin or passport is irrelevant. This young young woman (and please note that I’m not the one calling her a “bitch”) showed poor judgement and made very poor choices; and apparently her family also had a shakey sense of ethics – to say the least – by the fact that they allowed their teenage daughter to live this way. I can’t say with any certainly, but they sound like a gangsterish family to me. I just get that feeling. In any situation, I’d be leery of them.

      Some teary-eyed posters here keep emphasizing her American-ness, as if that should excuse everything else, and we should all support her. (As if that would make any difference now that she’s dead.) Well, what healthy, normal American family would allow its teenage daughter, still in high school, to work as a stripper, socialize with shady characters, and go off to Mexico to “learn” the smuggling trade? Something is very wrong there. And we’re supposed to excuse all of this because she’s American and she deserveds our “solidarity”?

      I say again that sympathizing with criminals — whoever they are — who voluntarily get themselves into trouble, is maudlin nonsense.

      1. I wasn’t saying she was a stupid b***h, I was just throwing that out as a conclusion one could reasonably come to, along with “typical teenager.” Even if I had, it’s still a more honest reaction than trying to figure out her state of racial purity before deciding how you should react to the facts of the situation. I’d also like to note that further down in the thread one of your fellow Nazis… er, excuse me, “racial nationalists” called her a “useless c**t.” I’m neither agreeing nor disagreeing, but I’d say that’s about equivalent, yes?

  25. Dear George
    There certainly is no harm in taking an interest in languages and physical anthropology, but a preoccupation with ancestry is not useful. People should be defined by what they are and not by what their ancestors were. If you meet someone who lives in the US and speaks English like you, you should asume that he is an American regardless how he/she looks.
    Of course, it has become official American policy to classify people by ancestry or race. Question 9 of the US census asks whether a person has Hispanic ancestry and question 10 asks about race. It would be better if both questions were removed. Instead, you could ask about the country in which a person was born, his parents were born or his grandparents were born.
    WNs do assume that only whites can become real Americans.

    Cheers. James

    1. f you meet someone who lives in the US and speaks English like you, you should assume that he is an American regardless how he/she looks.

      Yes! I agree!

      WNs do assume that only whites can become real Americans.

      Yes, they do, that is one of the tenets of it.

      I think ancestry is interesting, as long as it is not racist. I love to research my own background. It was very interesting to discover the Eastern Mediterranean roots of the Mandala family, which has a fascinating pedigree.

      1. Agreed. It can be fascinating. Especially if one is a history buff, like myself. Can’t get enough finding “connections” in the modern world to the past.

  26. Just like that. It’s “social race.” There is a strong tendency to deny Indianness and instead embrace mestizaje in Latin America. As long as you’re obviously not really White, they just go ahead and say they are mestizos. Most people are mestizos anyway, so it’s not big deal to be a mestizo. But being an Indian seems like it’s pretty bad, at least in Peru.

    They may consider it “social race”, or a “social construct” , if that makes them feel better, but that changes nothing scientifically/genetically. People can claim to be anything they want, but that doesn’t make it so. If someone couldn’t tell the difference between green and purple, that doesn’t mean there is no green. It just means that he’s confused (or colorblind).

    I could claim to be Chinese, but Chinese people won’t believe me. I won’t be able to kid them, even if I’m kidding myself. Are they confused, or am I?

    As for me, I’m white, and I know another white when I see one. If somebody is one tiny fraction of something else, and it’s not apparent, that makes no difference. To me, if you LOOK white, you ACT white, and consider yourself white, then you’re white. For instance, I would consider Vanessa Williams white, no matter what society says. To be perfectly logical about it, being 15/16ths white is obviously more weighty than being 1/16th black. That’s just math. (But blacks won’t like to hear that.)

    I have a very good friend, a socially designated “black” woman, who is actually predominately white. I just can’t think of her as “black”, but in respect for her I say nothing about it. The sad fact is, she has had to fight all her life to be “black” in order to fit in with blacks — even in her own family — so it’s been hard on her, and I wouldn’t make it harder. Other blacks are just black because that’s what they are; but quadroons like her don’t have it so easy. She has had to WORK at it. “Blackness” didn’t come naturally.

    So I wouldn’t tell Vanessa Williams that she’s not black. But to me, privately, she’s white.

    “As far as Black goes, I don’t know. I’ve never known any Latin Americans who were part Black.”
    Obviously you’ve never lived on the East Coast, Robert! NY and other large Eastern cities are full of Dominicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans. They are the major “hispanic” type.
    As for mestizos here: Mexicans are (or were) rare, but getting to be more common; and Central American types have become very common in the suburbs of Washington DC.

    “And yes, I have known some Mexicans who were as White as I am, and they denied they were White. They said, “I’m Mexican.”

    Yes, I’ve known some too. But that’s a special thing in Mexico, not found elsewhere in Latin America. The Mexican national myth is that “We are all mestizos.” Despite its obvious falsity, it has provided the country with some measure of social peace since the Mexican Revolution. I had a very good friend who was Mexican, and he explained to me that those other Hispanic countries do not share the same history or mentality with Mexico, and so being mestizo, to them, was not admirable, whereas in Mexico it was the national myth that held them together.

    They will also often tell you that they speak the pure Spanish from Spain and the Mexicans speak crap Spanish. They definitely feel superior!

    They do feel superior. However, Colombians claim to speak the best Spanish and feel superior to them. But Mexicans feel inferior to Argentina, and that really galls them. Argentina is white, and Mexicans don’t like that! In fact, Latinos in general don’t like anyone to be whiter than they are..

    1. “They do feel superior. However, Colombians claim to speak the best Spanish and feel superior to them. But Mexicans feel inferior to Argentina, and that really galls them. Argentina is white, and Mexicans don’t like that! In fact, Latinos in general don’t like anyone to be whiter than they are..”

      That’s what’s weird about Latinos to me. They deny whiteness and take it offensively if you say they are white, yet they want to be white, or at least have white phenotype. It’s hard to wrap my head around that.

      1. They don’t all deny Whiteness. That’s a US thing. A lot of the ones with roots in Mexico will pretty proudly tell you that they are *Spaniard*! And they are quite proud of that, and one gets the impression that they think they are better.

        Race is kind of a funny thing with Hispanics. You can bring it up with them, and they will talk about it, but you get the impression that you are talking about something that is somewhat taboo.

        Nevertheless, you usually can’t go wrong saying something like, “You’re Mexican? You look as White as I do!” You’re basically accusing them of being White. That’s hardly an insult to your average Mexican, let’s face it, no matter how much they try to deny it and say, “I’m not White, I’m Mexican.”

      2. They deny whiteness and take it offensively if you say they are white, yet they want to be white, or at least have white phenotype.

        Hispanics are peculiar in this regard. While many want to look white and even be white, they take great offense and try to aggressively refute you when you claim that they’re white.

        I’ve also noticed this contradictory attitude among white looking Middle Easterners.

        Not all are that way. Some even say that they’re simply white (well, some).

        They’re kind of like transformers. They’re white when it suits their purpose, yet they’re also “people of color” when it suits their purpose.

  27. “I often confuse Italians and Jews. A friend tells me that they look nothing at all alike, but I think they do.
    He says that Armenians look more like Ashkenazi Jews than any existing group. I think he may be onto something.”

    I suspect that you and he are right. I’ve noticed that too. After all, Jews and Armenians, two ancient nationalities that have survived conquests and the ages, come from the same general area of the Near East. I’m not saying that they’re closely related, but there seems at least to be SOME connection — at least culturally.

  28. I am very skeptical about the whole notion that most whites are part Indian. Nowadays, being white is not seen as cool or progressive. Whiteness it out.

    Being non-white is in, regardless of the suffocating “white privilege” that still supposedly permeates every aspect of life. . Therefore, I think that many whites like to think of themselves as part American Indian in order to alleviate white guilt, and perhaps reap potential benefits.

    By the way, how can anyone use DNA to determine someone’s race? How can anyone truly know whether or not white people are partially black? I’m skeptical that one can use DNA tests to reach the conclusion that 30% of whites are part black.

    After all, isn’t race just a “social construct?” Doesn’t it have “absolutely no biological validity?” Therefore, if anti-racists insist that race has no biological meaning, yet then use DNA tests to determine that everyone is racially mixed as a way to attack nationalism of any sort, they’re being somewhat contradictory.

    I don’t know what exactly my ancestry is. But I look white, act white, and as far as I know, nothing but white blood runs through my veins.

    Therefore, I’m white.

    End of story.

    To clarify, I don’t believe in 100% “pure races.” However, there are relatively pure races.

    You look at Shaq, and you can tell that he’s black. You look at Steve Nash, and you can tell that he’s white. You look at Yao Ming, and you can tell that he’s Asian. Etc.

    While I don’t subscribe to scientific racism or the notion of pure races, at the same time I’m not entirely buying the whole “race is just a social construct” line of reasoning.

    1. Well, the studies showing that 30% of Whites have Black genes are good, solid studies. And most of those genes came in since 1865. We’ve been interacting with the Indians for much longer than that, and there was never the extreme restrictions on breeding with Indians as there was with Whites breeding with Blacks.

      If 30% of Whites are part-Indian, my God, for sure, a majority of us must be part-Indian, but not very much.

      I’m not sure about my math, but I calculated that if I’m related to Pocohontas, that means that I am 1/3000th Indian. Is that correct? I have no idea. Depends how many generations went down between 1690 and 2010. 1/3000th is about right. Ok, so I am 2,999/3000th’s White and 1/3000th Indian. LOL, that makes me a fuckin Indian? Yeah, sure, whatever man, give me a cut of that casino money and I’ll put on a headdress and woo woo all day for ya.

      If you can trace your ancestry back to before 1700 in the US (keep in mind my folks came over on the Mayflower), you’re almost sure to have a bit of Indian blood in you.

      Your point is well taken. If you look Black, you’re Black. Blacks in the US are 15% White. Is there anyone who suggests that that 15% means that they are not Black? Come on. Mongolians are 10-15% Caucasian. But they’re still NE Asian Mongoloids. Look at em. Do they look like White people? Hell no. So they go to Asian. Screw this pure race crap. Just look at people, go on phenotype, and make a reasonable judgment.

      BTW, we are not race deniers on this site. You should know that by now.

      1. If you can trace your ancestry back to before 1700 in the US (keep in mind my folks came over on the Mayflower), you’re almost sure to have a bit of Indian blood in you.

        Hey, I also have ancestors who came over on the Mayflower. Does that make me part Indian?

        Like you said, if it means getting some casino money, I’ll put on a headdress and call myself sitting bull for a few days! Lol, just kidding! Not trying to insult our Indian friends out there.

        Mongolians are 10-15% Caucasian.

        They are? I never knew that they were part white. I always presumed that they were pure (well, relatively pure, that is) Asian. I mean, after all, Mongoloid is what is used to racially describe Asians, or Yellow people. You would think that Mongols would be the most Mongoloid of all.

        Which group did they get their white blood from?

        Screw this pure race crap. Just look at people, go on phenotype, and make a reasonable judgment.

        Agreed. I mostly go by phenotype and behavior. However, don’t entirely discount ancestry. While there may not be any “pure races,” there are relatively pure races.

        BTW, we are not race deniers on this site. You should know that by now.

        Agreed. I know that you take race very seriously and don’t discount it. You just don’t agree with those extreme Nordicist/WN types, have a more inclusive definition of white, and don’t buy into the notion of pure races.

        I agree with all three of those positions. I believe that race is important, am a pan-Aryanist like you, and don’t believe in 100% pure races.

        Just out of curiosity, how do you use DNA to determine one’s racial ancestry? Maybe I should take a test. Who knows, perhaps I’m part black.

        I guess that means I’ll be more athletic and a better basketball player from now on!

        Lol, couldn’t resist!

        1. Mongolians got their Caucasian from ancient Caucasian lines that have long been extant over in that part of the world. There is not much left of them. But if you look at groups like the Altai where Mongolia, China and Russia come together, they are like 50-50 Caucasian – Mongoloid. Even Siberians are about 7% White.

          Long period of Caucasian-Mongoloid mixing a very long time ago in that part of the world. Google “Tocharians” for one example.

          For instance, the Hmong, a Mongoloid group here in California, sometimes have kids with blond hair and blue eyes, the remnants of the ancient White genes from long ago. The Hmong originate from that same area – NW China where China, Mongolia and Russia all come together.

          I don’t know how they do those tests, but I would not worry about it too much if I were you.

        2. Almost all Mongoloids do not have any Caucasoid in them. Just some in the Stans – Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Kirghiz, Turkmen, Siberians, Northern Turkics like Altai, Uighurs, Nepalis, Mongolians, those along that Turkey – Mongolian axis have Caucasian in them. The rest of them have zero or next to zero. Some Filipinos have a bit of White in them from colonization.

          Koreans, Japanese, Chukchi, are close to Caucasians genetically, but they are Mongoloids and I’m not aware of any Caucasian genes. On some charts the Chukchi lump in the Caucasian quadrant and not in the Mongoloid quadrant.

          With a lot of those groups like Uighurs, Hazara, Kazakhs, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Nepalis, it gets really hard to figure out what to do with them. You almost have to flip a coin to put them in either Mongoloid or Caucasoid. They’re really mixed people.

  29. Did you know that the “Carthaginians,” supposedly North Africans, were actually Phoenicians set up shop in North Africa as a port? Weird.
    ……………………………….

    Yes, interesting. But no more weird than the Dutch setting up Nieuw Amsterdam as a port, or the British setting up Singapore as a port.

    Were the Phoenicians considered Semites or Philistines (Indo-Aryans)? I think they were Semites, no?

    What was their relationship with the Berbers? Were the Berbers a conqueredk subjugated people?

    Of course, the Carthaginians were allied with the Celts in Spain and Gaul. That was a natural alliance, as the Celts had been at war with Rome for 3 centuries, and the Romans were slowly winning, making Carthage and the Celts natural allies against Roman expansion.

    1. Phoenicians are nothing but Lebanese, if I am not mistaken. They came from Lebanon. I do not know of the relationship of the Phoenicians and the Berbers, but that whole region is a genetic hothouse tbh.

      1. Some of the smartest Arabs I have met are Lebanese, I might add. Great businessmen(and women). Maybe a historical root for them? Just an observation.

  30. “I’m skeptical that one can use DNA tests to reach the conclusion that 30% of whites are part black. ”

    Well, I’m not sure. I won’t attempt to defend it because I don’t know.

    But do realize that it only means that 30% of whites have SOME TINY BIT of negritude in them — however minuscule. Just an element. It doesn’t mean that all whites are 30% black.

      1. To me, such a study is meaningless. Who cares if 30% of us are on average 2% black?

        If they look white, act white, and think white, they’re white.

        End of story.

        1. To me, such a study is meaningless. Who cares if 30% of us are on average 2% black?

          If they look white, act white, and think white, they’re white.

          End of story.

          That’s about it, bro. Now you’re making sense!

        2. Does this mean I wasn’t making sense before?

          Just because I expressed skepticism regarding those tests, you know that I mostly agree with your views on race.

          I didn’t take that “now you’re making sense” line as an insult, but I couldn’t help but think that you perhaps thought I wasn’t making the slightest bit of sense before.

          Just wonderin’

        3. Yeah, I kinda knew what you meant. The wording just threw me off. That’s all.

          On another note, I am contemplating taking an ancestry test. Who knows what I’ll find?

        4. I guess I’m not actually contemplating it just yet, but I cannot help but be curious.

          From what I hear, those tests cost a decent amount.

  31. “That’s what’s weird about Latinos to me. They deny whiteness and take it offensively if you say they are white, yet they want to be white, or at least have white phenotype. It’s hard to wrap my head around that.”

    My Mexican friend lost no opportunity to make fun of Argentina and Argentines (or even be rude to them!) — yet it was clear to me that he was coming at it from an attitude of jealousy. He would criticize anything coming from Argentina, because Argentina was a white country, and Mexico was not.

    Of course, another thing is that these two countries are the leaders of Spanish America (movies, publishing, general culture), so there is a lot of competition between them, each one sniping at the other. Well, Mexico at Argentina anyway. In Argentina, I noticed they were more conscious of Brazil than Mexico. And the same jealousy existed in Brazil towards Argentina.

    As for Argentine attitudes, they will tell you emphatically that they are WHITE, and make no mistake about it. Some don’t even like to be lumped together with Latinos or Hispanics.

    When I was in Buenos Aires, we had a delicious meal (really excellent food, for the first time in South America), and I complimented the waiter that it was the best meal we had had in Latin America. He replied, politely but frostily, that: “We are not Latin Americans. We are Europeans.”

    I had been told! After that, I watched what I said.

    1. Lol! Amusing anecdote. It does seem like Argentina is radically different from most Latin American countries.

      In fact, I believe Argentina called itself “the only white nation in the western hemisphere.” Note: not just the only white nation in Latin America, but the entire western hemisphere (their reasoning being that the U.S had blacks and other groups. Their attitude was that they killed of all the Indians and didn’t allow blacks or other groups to settle in Argentina.

    2. They tend to see themselves as Europeans who happen to be living in S. America and who may eventually return to Europe. I’ve also heard that the Spanish look down at Argentinians and have derogatory words for them, the way the French look down their nose at French Quebecois. For all Argentina’s claims about how white it is, I didn’t think it was all that white when I was there. There were quite a bit of people that would be considered mestizos if they lived here, but probably call themselves white down there. I didn’t see that many people with light hair and light eyes. Most people definitely did look Spanish or Italian, but I think Argentina’s claims about how white it is are exaggerated. There are also quite a few Bolivian immigrants there “doing the jobs Argentinians won’t do” and they are sort of the “Mexicans” of Argentina. They’re pretty much despised.

  32. Dear George
    You shouldn’t draw conclusions about 40 million plus Argentinians from one waiter. It is true that in racial terms the Argentinians are one of the whitest people in Latin America, but in terms of genetic contribution, they are less white than the Americans were in 1950. Between 20 and 25% of Argentinian genes are non-white. In Uruguay it is about the same, and in Chile it should be between 30 and 35%.
    It is true that 6 million European immigrants settled in Argentina between 1880 and 1960, but 1/3 of them returned, and also millions of people entered Argentina from Paraguay, Bolivia and Perú. Look at Diego Maradona. He ain’t pure white at all.
    WNs may be interested in learning that Argentina also has a large Jewish community and many people with Arab ancestry. Former president Carlos Menem was a son of Arab immigrants. Is Menem really white? Let’s ask our WN friends. They should know.
    What this whole discussion illustrates is that racial classifications become more and more absurd as we get more race-mixing. To what race do Cheetah Woods or his children belong? Tiger is 1/8 white, so his children should be 9/16 white if Erin is pure white. However, let’s suppose that one of Erin’s great-parents was a Lap, then Tiger’s chlidren should be 50% white. Is that enough to entitle them to afirmative action?
    We can’t stop people from making their own classifications, but in my opinion all official racial classification should be abolished and so should anti-white discrimination, also known as affirmative action.
    Phenotype is not always a reliable guide to genotype. If two mulattos produce children, their offspring can vary from white to black. Just apply your high school genetics. Let a capital letter stand for blackness and a small letter for whiteness, and let’s assume that color is determined by two pair of genes.
    Then AABB x aabb = AaBb, a mulatto. Between two mulattos, it is AaBb x AaBb, and we can get AABB, 100% black; AaBB and AABb, 75% black; aaBB, AAbb and AaBb, 50% black; aaBb and Aabb, 25% black; and aabb, 100% white. Of course, this refers to color only.
    If color is determined by 3 pairs of genes, then we have 7 possibilities, (3 x 2) + 1. If it is determined by 4 pairs, there are 9 possibilities, (4 x 2) +1.

    Have a good day everybody. James

    1. Great points. It’s very hard to make assumptions about the race of people who have a mix in their genepool. My mother has 9 brothers and sisters. One of them nearly passes for white, and one of them is as dark as Bill Cosby.

  33. Robert,
    Sorry to keep banging on about that useless c*nt Elisabeth Mandala, but to all those Americans out there (and their numbers seem to be legion) who cannot tell the difference between a full-blooded Mexican face and an Italian face (oh, how I cringe when I continue to read here ‘but I knew Italian chicks who looked like her back in High School’), I strongly recommend logging on to Dienekes Pontikos’s excellent anthropolgy blog and peruse the wealth of material, both technical and lay, on the various European phenotypes, written by a man who actually lives in Europe and knows Europe.
    Look at the ‘composite’ computer modelled faces of the ‘typical’ European nationalities for instance.
    Also garner some useful information such ast the quantum of sub-saharan Afriac and asiatic blood in the Sicilians is miniscule, less than 0.3%, lower than in the English in fact.
    Another useful page look at is of the photogarphs of Italian and Sicilian senators nad Euro MPs.
    You won’t find a face resembling in the SLIGHTEST Mandala’s face.
    Why am I so worked up ? – I dislike falsehood and I dislike gross ignorance.I try my best to clear them up where I find them.
    Anyone who thinks Mandala looks Italian is either a fool or a liar.

    1. Well, Dienekes is just wrong. One of his agendas is to show that Italians and Greeks
      “don’t have any nigger in them.” He isn’t exactly correct. Sicilians and Greeks probably have about 5% Sub-Saharan blood from Ethiopia. Supposedly this is ancient Caucasian DNA from the first Caucasians 25,000 YBP, but it came in via the Greek Empire 2,000 YBP when there was a lot of exchange of genes between Greece and Ethiopia.

  34. Why is it that everyone always try to deny they have black in them? Go back 60,000-100,000 years and we all can trace our ancestry back to them.

    Yes, I do think Italians, Spaniards and Greeks have some black in them, albeit a tiny percentage.

  35. “You won’t find a face resembling in the SLIGHTEST Mandala’s face.
    Why am I so worked up ? – I dislike falsehood and I dislike gross ignorance.I try my best to clear them up where I find them.
    Anyone who thinks Mandala looks Italian is either a fool or a liar.”

    Freud
    ————————————

    Well, maybe just confused.

    The point here — which some people just don’t get — is that being BORN in a place doesn’t necessarily make you the same as all the other people in that place.

    After all, Pearl Buck was born and raised in China, but she wasn’t Chinese! The Chinese wouldn’t accept that she was one of them, and she never claimed to be.

    In Mandala’s case, an interesting one because it’s so complex and unusual, her ancestors originally migrated to Sicily 500 years ago, apparaently fleeing wars in the Balkans, then being invaded by Ottoman Turks. They settled in Sicily, among Sicilians, but were not Sicilian themselves, and evidently they kept themselves separate by the fact that they had their own language and have preserved it all this time. Just living in Sicily for 500 years didn’t make them look like other Italiams. (And some Italians won’t accept that Sicilians are even Italian at all.)

    And then, when here in America, they married Mexican … and who knows what else?

    In America, we make the huge mistake of assuming that if you’re from place XYZ, then you must be XYZ. That’s very naive. It isn’t that simple.

    Example: I was looking at the 1930 census for New York City. In northern Manhattan there is a large Greek community. I wasn’t looking for them, but I stumbled across this interesting fact. On the census, they were all listed as Turks. On delving further, it turnsedW out that the reason was that they had all been born in Turkey. Well, being born in Turkey didn’t make them Turks; but for the US government it did. The Asiatic side of the Aegean was under the Ottomans when they were born. Cities such as Smyrna were ETHNICALLY Greek, as was the whole coastline. But in the Greco-Turkish war of 1922, Turkey expelled them all (“ethnically cleansed”, as we say today), and these people came to America as refugees from the Turks, goddam it! They were GREEKS fleeing TURKS. Nevertheless, the USA listed them as Turks because they were born in Turkey! Nothing could be further from the Truth. There is also an old Arab community in Brooklyn Heights. These people came here about 1900 (Khalil Gibran was one). They were Arabs from Syria and Lebanon. But at that time, the whole territory was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, so they were also considered “Turks”…. although they were fleeing the Turks!

    Similarly, there are Arab communities scattered through Latin America. They are called “Turcos” because they came from regions that were then under Turkish rule. But they’re not Turkish, they’re Arabs!

    No, coming from the Turkish Empire doesn’t make you a Turk, anymore than coming from the British Empire makes you British, or coming from Haiti makes you French, or being born in Hong Kong makes you Chinese. It’s your genes, in the long run, that determine what you are.

    (It must be said, though, that persons in the British Empire had British passports, and they were considered British subjects. But that was only a legalism. Being legally “British” was not the same as being ethnically British. Our eyes know the difference, no matter what the passport says.)

  36. “Why is it that everyone always try to deny they have black in them? Go back 60,000-100,000 years and we all can trace our ancestry back to them.”…India

    Deny it? It doesn’t faze me in the slightest.

    Besides how do we know they were “black” (if that’s how you choose to define them)?
    How can we tall what color they were, or how they looked 100,000 years ago?

    We have evolved in all that time; probably Africans have too. Why would we evolve, while they have remained the same?

    At any rate, I’m not worried about it. Who’s denying it?

    1. All of the native peoples of Sub Saharan Africa have a heavy melanin layer on their skin. So it figures that the original OOA folks must have had a deep melanin layer also. No one quite knows what they looked like, but the original OOA folks may have looked something like a Khoisan or Bushman type. The Negroid type does not appear until about 6-12,000 YBP in the context of agriculture in the Sahel.

      Negroids were created out of a Khoisan-Pygmy type base. Prior to 12,000 YBP, Africans were more or less a Khoisan-Pygmy type. Pygmies go back about 50-60,000 YBP in Africa and may be a split from Khoisan. Old Africans from 90,000 YBP or so look something like a Khoisan.

  37. Robert says:
    All of the native peoples of Sub Saharan Africa have a heavy melanin layer on their skin. So it figures that the original OOA folks must have had a deep melanin layer also. No one quite knows what they looked like, but the original OOA folks may have looked something like a Khoisan or Bushman type. “

    I can buy that. It makes sense to me.
    And the melanin layer does too, considering that they were right on the equator.

  38. “Dear George
    You shouldn’t draw conclusions about 40 million plus Argentinians from one waiter.”

    Of course not. I only offered him as an example. Good grief! Do you think he was the only person I encountered when I was there?

    “It is true that in racial terms the Argentinians are one of the whitest people in Latin America, but in terms of genetic contribution, they are less white than the Americans were in 1950. “

    Probably so. But this is 2010, and you don’t have thevast ghettos of negros and mestizos there that you see here. They are the “whiter” country today.

  39. uhh even if she had a castillian name, it be a european or white derived surname Spaniards are white people( let the great moor blood exageration go)

    also the fact that her last name is sicilian in origin has nothing to do with her being mestiza or not.

    most black americans have english names and are not english, some have distant almost non important english decent but for the most part there given english names to non europeans.
    which is also pretty much the situation in alot of latin american countries. im from latin america and i have a french name but im not completely french i have black in me, only 1/4 but its there.
    so im sure that shes most likely mestiza…since thats the majority of mexico and her phenotype is not white….

    not everyone in sicily is white either.

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