In the comments section, tulio notes that White Nationalists are not necessarily irrational. I agree that the project makes sense on a lot of levels. Agreeing with Alpha Unit, I simply state that it is both unworkable and more importantly immoral, or evil if you prefer. On Occidental Dissent there have been many discussions about how to implement their project. My Liberal Race Realism will not save the White race. I don’t intend that it should, as I don’t care about White extinction. Most other similar projects are also doomed.
In fact, putting their project in democratically via elections is also doomed, as is winning over a majority of Whites to their project. The only way to put their project in, as the webmaster of Occidental Dissent notes, is via an undemocratic project such as coup, seizure of power or revolution. Then a dictatorship (authoritarian state) would need to be put in place because if the project were put up to vote, it would lose. I agree with this assessment. A fascist dictatorship is the only way to implement the WN project, and also, incredibly, to save the White race.
In addition, an authoritarian state would need to be implemented to input the more unsavory aspects of the WN project. Even the most moderate proposals involve a denial or rights to non-Whites living in the White state to encourage them to flee. Furthermore, miscegenation by Whites would be made illegal. You can guess what the more unsavory projects entail.
tulio notes that de facto White (and other) enclaves already exist:
Aren’t there already de-facto ethnic states in America? I’d say that whole area between Eastern Washington to the Dakotas and extending south to Northern Nevada and Utah is pretty much a de facto white ethnic state. As would be New England north of Boston. Los Angeles is pretty much Mexico City with a beach. Miami has been called “The Capital of Latin America”.
Atlanta is considered the “Black Mecca” amongst middle class black folks who are flocking there to be amongst people like themselves. I’d say there are already many ethnic territories in America, just not by law perhaps, but they exist.
Yes, but the WN argument, and once again it is rational, is that all of these places are doomed. Their argument is that Whites develop a place, make it a real nice place to live (by virtue mainly of there being mostly Whites living there) and then non-Whites (code as Blacks and Hispanics) move there to get away from the hoods that the Blacks and Hispanics have degraded or in some places destroyed. Even many Blacks and Hispanics often do not wish to live with their own kind in large numbers.
You could call this argument, Whites Create, Non-Whites Destroy (What Whites Created).
With Blacks, they are probably fleeing excessively Black hoods where well-behaved Blacks have had it with the bullshit. White areas are nice, low-crime and prosperous. Most of all safe. Blacks, when asked, prefer to live in a “diverse” hood, not in a Black community. Hispanics will probably just move to White areas because they are increasing in population and moving everywhere nowadays, possibly also for work. Hispanics don’t seem to mind living with their own that much, though once they get some money, you do see a bit of “Hispanic flight.”
The WN argument is that these very nice White areas soon start to decline as a result of large numbers of non-Whites move in, paradoxically to escape the places they have already destroyed. But with certain numbers, they will probably also recreate what they sought to escape. So the Whites are doomed. Everywhere they move, the non-Whites will follow and soon create degraded hoods that the Whites were seeking to flee in the first place.
At some point, there will be nowhere left to run. The Whites with money will move to Latin American like gated communities, while those without will be left to their own devices in the high crime diverse areas that most places have become. We do see something like this in Latin America.
Well, the WN’s are indeed onto something here, and as in so many ways, there is a large grain of truth to what they say.
I argue that WN is not just impractical but also immoral or evil, not necessarily that it is irrational, though its discourse necessarily contains many irrational arguments. Necessarily because any racist project or viewpoint is automatically irrational to some extent, since a rational view of race tends to lead away from hardcore racism.
21 thoughts on “The Rational Element to White Nationalist Discourse”
Civilization will soon end due simply to resource depletion. Ancient civilizations used the energy base of human slavery. Even the U.S. used this up until 1865. What put an end to it? Industrialization. A single barrel of oil contains the energy content of 25,000 hours of human labor. The average american consumes the energy equivalent of 150 faithful servants toiling around the clock. The world is now in the early stages of peak oil, and in a few decades the entire world will be in the stone age. Renewable energy is a joke. Just to feed the average American requires the equivalent of a gallon of gas a day for tractors, fertilizer, shipping, refrigeration, etc. There is simply no possible way we’ll be able to feed our population of 310 million in 2050, let alone 500 million. When people start starving immigration and birth rates will decline. For more info google “LATOC.”
As to the white flight issue. There doesn’t seem to be any appreciable population growth of non-whites in the upper mountain states. I certainly have never met a black that expressed any desire to live in Idaho or Wyoming and I can’t imagine blacks wanting to moving there in significant numbers anytime in the foreseeable. I think most blacks would rather tough it out in D.C. or Detroit than move to Billings, MO. I saw a documentary about Yellowstone park and there was a black park ranger. He may be the only black guy living in that state.
There are of course Native Americans, but it’s kind of hard to tell these non-whites to leave since they were there first. Especially when many of these states, cities and counties are even named after Native American tribes, e.g. Cheyenne, Dakota, Minnesota, etc.
I think Latinos are less reluctant to move to very white states than blacks are. Blacks don’t mind living around some whites, especially the liberal kind, but get quickly uncomfortable about a place with TOO MANY whites. Blacks will often joke about some town they went to and felt like they were a fly in a bowl of milk and couldn’t wait to get back to more familiar ground. I’m sure whites feel the exact same way when they are the only white guy walking around the middle of downtown Oakland. But anyway, back to Latinos, I think they are less likely to feel that way and more likely to go wherever blue collar jobs are available. Many small white towns in the midwest now have lots of Latinos because they’ve been brought in for cheap labor in construction, meat packing and agriculture.
I think the whole whites create, non-whites destroy, whites move thing is probably not so relevant to blacks, because black Americans like white Americans have a fairly stable population growth. If blacks move into another, it means another area just lost blacks. So you are pretty much just re-arranging the furniture so to speak. But when you have an immigrant group that comes from high birth rate countries, it’s a different dynamic. When they move into a new area, the area they just left will quickly be re-populated by the same group either through high immigration rates or high birth rates. I think the Latino population will continue to soar, while the blacks will continue being about 13% for the forseeable future and whites will decline. This country will definitely be Hispanicized and California of today is what the rest of the country will look like within 50 years, maybe except for a few places like Alaska and the upper mountain states.
There are a few non-Whites moving into the upper mountain states. A few Blacks. And the White racists up there are really upset about it. It’s quite an unfriendly place for Blacks, and many Blacks have told us about this. It’s usually some middle-aged White guy staring them down in a restaurant type thing. There are quite a few more Hispanics moving into those areas, especially southern Idaho, where they work in agriculture. Most of them are illegals of course, as are most Hispanic migrants. The Whites are squawking about it a bit, but in general, even racist Whites tolerate Hispanics way better than they do Blacks. The racists up there don’t complain about Indians.
The Black population does have a stable pattern. However, I believe in a few decades or so it is projected to go from 13% to 14%. The White racists are really freaked out about this! LOL. It just goes to show that Blacks are their true and deepest enemies. You guys are really Enemy #1 to these guys. Of course, the worst case scenario would be Blacks spread evenly everywhere so they were 13% across the board. Even that is pretty much a tolerable level of Blacks for most sane Whites, but that will never happen because there will always be places with huge %’s of Blacks, so there is no way to get 13% across the board with huge concentrations in various places.
The future is for the US to become just another Latin American country. I have already written about that. I’ll be dead by then, but I’m already living that reality anyway.
Maybe there’ll be white flight to Canada?
Even then, it’s not necessarily the end of the world or anything. I just hope if we become another Latin American country, it’ll be more like Uruguay and not El Salvador.
This project sounds as if Whites as well as non-Whites would be under siege. Harsh measures to keep people in line wouldn’t be restricted just to non-Whites, as Robert said.
Of course, for Whites, all the repression would be for their own good.
If it doesn’t worship the state, if the state is just a means to preserve the race, then it isn’t true fascism by textbook definition.
Some white countries are not very attractive, but whites can create attractive places, while so far we have not seen one black-dominated country that even remotely resembles Switzerland. This means that, it there is freeedom of movement between black-dominated and white-dominated countries, there will be a massive flow from the former to the latter.
Europe has now around 700 million people and low fertility while black Africa has around 800 million and high fertility. Already there is constant illegal immigration from Africa into Europe. If nothing is done to stop this, Europe may eventually become a mainly black continent. I think that the white nationalists are quite right to warn about that.
As to the prophecy that the US will eventually become like a Latin American country, it is too early to tell. What may eventually persuade many Americans to advocate immigration restriction is resource depletion and CO2 emission. In the end it must dawn on even the most dogmatic political correctie that it is easier to limit CO2 emissions with a stable population than with a steadily growing one, and that it is also easier to supply a smaller population with dwindling natural resources than a larger one.
I’m not sure most blacks are lined up to emmigrate to Europe. Keep in mind, people have roots, language, culture, family, traditions, tribal connections, etc that don’t just make it a no-brainer to up and move to Europe. You probably have more white people living on the African continent than you have Africans living on the European continent. So remember, the flow has always gone in both directions.
Africa has a high fertility rate but also has a very high infant mortality rate and low life expectancy rate, and that’s even before you get to the AIDS epidemic.
I haven’t checked your figures on the number of Europeans but I’ll assume they are correct. If we’re talking about simply the number of whites period on the planet, there are heck of a lot more than 700 million. The southern half of S. America has a large number of whites. Then there’s obviously Canada and the U.S.. Russia has a huge number of people. Then there’s Australia and New Zealand and S. Africa. The number is well over a billion. If you include people who are “near white” such as some Asia-minor people, northern Indians, some Persians and other fair skinned middle easterners and even some of the very light skinned Latin Americans like Adriana Lima( http://www.splendicity.com/sheknowsbest/files/2008/02/adriana_lima-bikini.jpg), I think the number might be up around 2 billion.
What’s funny is I’ve gone on stormfront just to see what people are saying. The paranoia is actually quite laughable, it truly is. These guys are acting like the white race’s disappearance is imminent, and we need all these draconian laws to stop it. I got a kick out of this one person’s post that asked if it would be possible to extract the white race from black DNA when whites disappear. They came to the conclusion that it wasn’t, lol. That’s how batshit crazy paranoid these guys are. No race is going to vanish off this planet for many, many, many, many centuries, if even then. And that many hundreds of years in the future, we’ll probably be recreating dinosaurs from fossilized DNA, so the issue will be moot.
tulio:”No race is going to vanish off this planet for many, many, many, many centuries, if even then.”
Frankly, I’d rather see the White race become extinct than watch it become totally mongrelized via wholesale mixing with other races.
Mongrel peoples and nations have never contributed anything to higher forms of human civilization. Mongrelization leads to a civilizational decline just as we have seen in Latin America, India, North Africa, Central Asia, and other very mongrelized areas of the world.
Take your choice, White Americans – http://www.churchoftrueisrael.com/tyc/tyc_toc.html
Guess you’ve never heard of Egypt. Or Japan.
Outside of SA, most whites in Africa nowadays are temporary residents. Before independence, there were about 250,000 whites living in Zimbabwe, but today there are fewer than 50,000. Since the end of apartheid, 1 million whites have left SA. The large number of Portuguese that once lived in Angola and Mozambique have also departed. Whites don’t mind living in Africa when they are in charge, but when they lose power, they tend to leave in droves.
There are also linguistic and cultural differences between the US and Mexico, but that hasn’t stopped Mexicans from moving to the US in large numbers. The more of them settle in the US, the easier it is for them to live like a Mexican but with an American income.
Likewise, the more Africans establish themselves in Europe, the more they can live among their own kind while enjoying an improvement in their material standard of living. Immigrants attract immigrants from their own country as long as the economic conditions in the old country don’t catch up with those in the new country.
When I was speaking of separatism, I was talking mainly about America. Honestly, if Europeans want to close off their borders and stop anyone else from coming in, I could care less, it’s their country to do with as they please. I really don’t have a say one way or the other what they do since I don’t live there.
I would also add that the problem isn’t immigration per se, it’s bringing in immigrants that are likely to become a social burden. Allowing middle class or educated immigrants from any country is really not harmful. It’s when you start bringing in uneducated peasants with no skills that you start having issues. Personally, I don’t believe we need immigration numbers in America as high as they currently are, but I wouldn’t ban citizens of any particular nation from coming here. They would just have to be highly qualified.
i hope like hell there is a way which is not overly violent, something that does not involve genocide. and maybe gated communities are an example of the way to proceed.
i think there might be hope, because very few like crime. and i think that hardcore crackdowns on crime are called for. both violent crime and white-collar crime. we used to hang a man for stealing a horse. ken lay, madoff, angelo mozillo…they all deserve capital punishment plus cut them up and hang their dead bodies up in iron cages. medieval style.
i would love to see a sweep through the projects which rounds up the violent thugs who stifle the good hardworking people.
i don’t see anyway the Left is going to make something like this happen. their politically-correct, silver tongues have completely dissolved whatever balls they might have had to begin with.
so i’m going to hope for this to come from the Right.
“The racists up there don’t complain about Indians.”
How can you diagnose us as “racists” if we don’t complain about our INDIANS?
Maybe we’re not “racists” at all — we’re just ticked off and in self-defense mode about the crime and grime and overpopulation. (Because, remember, the West in general, WY in particular, doesn’t have the WATER to support ’em all.)
Russia is part of Europe and its population is included in the 700-million figure. I wasn’t really predicting the end of the white race, only that, if Europe takes a mainly laissez-faire approach to African immigration, it will sooner or later cease to be a mainly white continent and become a black-dominated area. It will as a result come to resemble Africa more than Europe. For the Africans that would still be an improvement while for the Europeans that would be a deterioration.
Africa may be plagued by Aids, but that hasn’t stopped its population from growing very rapidly. For instance, in 1980, Ethiopia had around 40 million people while today it has 80 million. The percentage of the population that is under 15 is very high in most African countries, and that insures that population growth will continue for much more time, even if fertility declines drastically.
No matter how you look at it, Africa is a demographic high-pressure area and Europe is a demographic low-pressure area. If no dam is erected between the two areas, the migratory flow from Africa to Europe will continue until such time that Europe starts to resemble Africa.
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These discussions are amazing…especially in the 21st Century. A couple of points. First of all, while races clearly do exist, there has been no such thing as a “pure” race, at least not since the Garden of Eden. Second, therefore, we’re all already “mongrelized.” It’s just a matter of degree. Third, historically speaking, pure race consciousness is a relatively recent thing. Ethnicity is far more complex than just race and ancient records are full of origin myths tracing “national” descent from all kinds of unlikely sources (how many trace their lineage, or have had their lineage traced back, to the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel”?) Fourth, again historically speaking, there is surprisingly little antipathy to so-called race mixing in the distant past, and even less the further back you go. Ethnicity and religion and notions of “uncleanness”, among other things, have been far more divisive. In more recent times, racial discrimination has become so intertwined with economics and status that it’s difficult to believe, in a modern context, that they could ever truly be viewed separately from one another. There are also many instances where cross-fertilization, so to speak, among peoples has been actively sought to “improve the stock.” Fifth, the idea that all of civilization comes from the “white” race is bunk, so I won’t comment further on it. Sixth, to all those WN’s out there, how many of your original immigrant ancestors would not have been allowed a place at the big table in the pre-20th Century equivalents of “gated communities”? Well, you made it, so you should give the others who came after you an even break, unless you don’t believe in fair (as in “white”) play? Lastly, race seems to be super difficult only in a specific U.S. framework. Perhaps this is due to media, because the fact is that racially-motivated (or ethnic or communal conflict, take your pick) is pretty visible on every continent. I say this because, on the evidence, the U.S. has made tremendous gains in having people of so many backgrounds come together to live in a single country, though their ideals and outlooks may be quite different. How many races lie in Arlington? There is more hope in America than you can imagine.
Thx for your comment. I appreciate it.