New Article About the Peopling of India

A new article has come out in Nature Magazine dealing with the Peopling of India, a subject I have dealt with quite a bit on this site. The Indian nationals who hate the Aryan Invasion concept have been jumping up and down for joy over this article. I’m not sure where these people are coming from, but generally, it’s a silly, anti-scientific and reactionary place.
Their argument is usually that the Aryan Invasion could not have taken place since our Hindu texts say that it never happened. Well, there is not much to say to such a powerful scientific argument like that!
Those who oppose the Aryan Invasion theory are generally Far Rightwing Hindu nationalists or Hindutvas. They also tend to be associated with the higher castes, especially the Brahmins. One argument is an Indian nationalist one. This crazy line says that there was no Aryan invasion – instead this was a lie made up by the evil British colonialists to “divide the people of India.” As Hindutva fascism claims (falsely) to be a national unification project, as all such projects do, they rail against the “outsiders who divide our people.”
Problem with this argument is that the Indians themselves and the Hindus in particular had done a mighty fine job dividing up the Indian people themselves into many thousands of insane, cruel, backwards and anti-human caste structures.
Another crazy Indian nationalist argument is that there was no caste until the evil Brits came. Or there was caste before then, but it was nothing. The evil Brits came and made caste so much worse. This argument is favored with high castes, typically Brahmins. It’s dubious. Caste was probably much worse before the British came.
The British, civilized folks that they were, hated the animalistic, bestial, primitive caste system and tried to eliminate as part of the necessary mission of civilizing the Indians. This article notes that caste is as old as India, and that the British did not hoist it upon the unwilling heads of the innocent and pure Indians.
Another crazy Indian nationalist line is that there was no race structure in India. Race was invented in India by those evil Brits again. The Brits divided the peaceable, loving, brotherly and Kumbayaa-singing Indian people into two races, a northern race that appeared European or Aryan and a southern race that they called Dravidian.
There does seem to be something to the concept of a somewhat bimodal race structure in India. The people of the South are darker and have a different physical type than the Northern Indics, who look more Iranian or even European. Some say that the Dravidians are the remains of a Mediterranean Caucasian Race that moved into India 13-17,000 years ago. That seems reasonable to me.
This article turns that on its head and argues that all Indians are a mixture between North Indians and South Indians. The South Indians are more Asiatic types and the North Indians are a more European type, yet all of the Indian people are thoroughly mixed between the two. This also seems reasonable.
Articles about the piece, especially from the reactionary Brahmin-controlled Indian media, are crowing about “the death of the Aryan invasion theory.” But the Nature piece proclaims no such thing.
The Nature article claims that the South Indians came to India 70,000 YBP. The only remaining pure members of the South Indian group are the Negritos of the Andaman Islands. This part is reasonable enough. The piece also claims that the North Indians (or Aryans) came to India 45,000 YBP. This much is a real shocker, and I do not know what to make of this.
45,000 YBP, there were no real Caucasoid types anywhere. Further, skulls from even north India dated at 24,000 YBP look like Aborigines. So these North Indians must have looked like Aborigines at first. In fact, all Indians looked something like Aborigines until 8,000 YBP when they started transitioning to Caucasian types.
Anyway, there was an Aryan invasion. Or at least, a group of Indo-Aryans moved down from Kazakhstan into Iran, Kurdistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, the Caucasus, Pakistan and North India about 3,500 YBP. They all speak related languages that we can provably trace back to the Russian steppes. We can follow their movements archeologically as they moved down from Kazakhstan into North India.
Now whether or not these folks were “invaders” is open to question. Perhaps they were “migrants.” Maybe they were “undocumented workers.” Maybe they were going on an extended vacation down South. I haven’t the faintest idea. But there was clearly a movement of Indo-European speaking Indo-Aryan folks down from Kazakhstan into Central and South Asia 3,500 YBP. That’s a fact of history, and no sane person questions that. Nor does this paper call that into question.
Another argument that Indian nationalists are making is that Indians are a unique race, a separate race, not part of any other race. If you look at the data, that’s an interesting argument, but skull and genetic data (see Cavalli-Sforza for instance) show that Indians are a member of the Caucasian race, though they are one of the most divergent members of that group.
One interesting finding is that Gujaratis seem to form their own separate minor race in India and differentiate from all the others. I can’t explain that, but it may have something to do with stories about Scythians moving into that area 1,200 YBP.
One of the more sensible dissections of the article is here by Razib of GNXP Science Blogs. Razib is sounding a lot more sensible since he got his better writing gig at Science Blogs.
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208 thoughts on “New Article About the Peopling of India”

  1. Robert,I mean serioulsy?
    The girl who looks 100% indian could be mistaken for hispanic?I thought this was a great site and you were a good anthropologist.My uncle has been mistaken for circassian many times and you say he looks “too indian” lol i just wanted your opinioon on that.I was really expecting some good replies form you regarding shad and my uncle but you were like indian bullshit and us iranians felt dejected.

    1. Wow! Amazing photo. You are an Indian Muslim? You look 100% White. There were a lot of European White kids around who looked like you when I was a kid. Pretty amazing phenotype for India.

      1. Haha thanks robert,anyways what european nationality could i be mistaken for or go for because im prettysick of india and its culture.I’ve got a lot of hindu neighbours and they wont let me live in peace.It would also be great meeting you in person!

    1. LOL, unfortunately not really, but most people don’t care one way or the other. Some of the saner people will tell you that they look like Caucasians. We have a lot of Punjabis in my town, and some of them look amazingly White or European. I have met a few of them who looked so White I thought they were Europeans!

        1. He is wrong! He is a Nordicist. I am friendly to the idea of Pan-Aryanism. Whites of the world unite. Not to be White Supremacists or anything like that, but more to feel a sense of solidarity with each other in our shared heritage the same way that pro-Black, pro-Hispanic and pro-Asian groups do. A non-racist grouping of people with a common heritage getting together to celebrate their shared history and culture.
          Personally, I think being White is just boss. And I’d like to invite as many people to the party as possible!

      1. These guys are obviously not Europid, even by looking at them from a European point of view they are not European looking. It’s more like a Eurasian-Iranid-Indid look that separates them from a classic Europid Italian/Greek/Medish phenotype and these guys have particular traits that gives off their non-European origins.
        Even in Russia, which has been a gateway gauge point for non-European invaders into Europe and actually were the first to invent the term “white”, these guys would stand out and be discernible from their features from a Europid looking person from somewhere like Southern Russia, the Balkans, Southern Ukraine where the Aryan Med phenotype is really frequent in that part of world. If “white” means Europid then these guys are not “white”!

        1. Yup agree Batterytrain. They have sharp features that are common in Caucasoids, but their skin color and some of their Asiatic features gives it away. Through them into Greece and maybe one or two of them may blend. The rest may be easily identified as Pakistani or Indian or Iranian or something. If you threw these people in a multicultural pot like North America or South America, then they could be mistaken for “white.” Otherwise they look a bit off.

    1. Robert lindsay,
      Could you please say how you knew he was an indian while not giving a second thought that he could be a pakistani,greek iranian?

  2. Robert lindsay,Do the ‘WHITE looking’ Punjabis look really european or is it just that you exaggerate a lot.Even hrithik roshan or kareena kapoor wont pass for europeans(I am greek).Some nutjob once commented that hrithik looks greek.Thats just so laughable because he doesnt.I’ve seen more punjabis then you could ever have since I’ve been to Punjab several times and none of them look european even the fairest ones but they could pass for middle eastern though.Why are you so obsessed with Punjabis being white.Why do you want to make them white.You know not many europeans are going to accept this?

    1. I hate Eurocentrism. Europeans think that they are the only White people on Earth and that is crap and a lie.
      SOME Punjabis look like they could be Iranians, Jews, Turks, or maybe even Greeks or Italians. And I have met a FEW Punjabis (so far two) who simply looked like Europeans. In fact, with one guy, I was certain he was a European man until he started talking! The other guy, I had no idea what he was.
      In this town, many Punjabis look like Mexicans or Hispanics and it is often very hard to tell them apart.
      The Europeans won’t accept this because they are racist. It’s that simple. The Europeans who won’t accept this are all racist dicks, and I don’t care what they think.

      1. LOL,which Punjabi guy was that who you couldnt tell aprt from whites unttil he started talking.Did he have light hair,White European complexion,White body type?As I’ve stated even the fairest one of them dont look quite european and Im not racist.Im okay with jews ,Aghans,Iranians in my group but I just cant simply accept Indians.They are way too low and shit.Is that White punjabi guy on fb?Because i wanna check him out?

        1. He was tall, skin within the European range (You Greeks have White complexion!?), face definitely European type, his hair was a sort of a light brown to brown. He could very easily have been a Med. He could well have been a Turk, a Greek, a Levantine Arab, a Romanian, or someone from the Caucasus.
          Another one, I had no idea whatsoever what he was. He looked like either a White or a mostly White Mexican. I had no idea he was Punjabi until he told me.

    2. shitstain Zeus, who the fuck do you think you are ? Calling a whole race a lowlives… Whaty the fuck have you accomplished to brand others as lowlives.. clowns like you should be never given access to internet and Fucking cocksucking fag how do you live with yourself? ..Racist assoles like you are a waste of carbon atoms..Go back to your shitty town and watch anime porn thats what you are good for…

    1. He has that Indian phenotype, but if you do not look at him closely, you know there are some Southern Italians (Sicilians) who could look something like that. I will post some photos of some White looking Indians shortly.

    1. The guy on the right has an interesting phenotype. It could be West Asian or even Mediterranean. He could easily be Jewish or Lebanese or maybe Turkish. The guy on the left is very Caucasoid, but he is too dark to be mistaken for a European. Also he does look like an Indian Caucasoid.

        1. Ok you Indian nutball, the truth hurts I guess. I will have to send you back on you to the land of curry and shit-filled rivers. Try not to catch too many diseases over there.
          HAND!

  3. T.burrow says that there were no indo european languages spoken in central asia and northern europe including russia. It was during iranians empires that the indo european language spread in central asia and northern europe. Turkic and finno ughric languages were spoken in central asia and northern europe. If some aryan warrior did come from abroad 10000 years ago must have come from eastern europe with an invading army. Just like alexander came with an army. He must have come with a large army speaking different languages and dailects.

  4. hi robert
    we have a lot of africans in my town and some of em look amazingly white or european.INFACT with one guy i was certain was caucasian until he stared talking
    see what i did here?

  5. Hi Robert,
    I am from Bangladsh but currently in Australia but when I say this to the people around they refuse to believe me and think Im lying.They say I look completely european.You can see i am bangladeshi as my name suggests and and some of my family members dont look like me but we are related it has benn confirmed by tests.Heres me
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/75853_1474225295759_3041810_n.jpg?oh=d1235e89c495af709af9b6cf20860757&oe=556D05A1&gda=1432137787_52ab5b0908a83009b7602a1a3bc75d35
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/p417x417/977452_4943177417394_1747148011_o.jpg
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/574931_3667454885128_40973394_n.jpg?oh=93d93873df035d83faeef266cb778c70&oe=554F67B9&gda=1432538818_115edfc688d521650e9e7f2f569b0d75
    and heres my cousin,
    https://scontent-a-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1535009_713778285331705_1348929613_n.jpg?oh=7c8c5b809280503e6977f2c3957575f0&oe=5565814D
    What do you have to say?

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