The comment below is from an Indian poster on this popular post. I agree with most of what he says. First of all, I don’t think that the Aryans pushed the Dravidians to the South. There are Dravidian types and mixed types all over North India.
Points 2 and 3 are self-evident.
I have always felt that Hinduism was nothing more than the ancient religion of India, and there is good evidence for this. Clearly it predates the Aryans. It’s not necessarily as old as India, since India is as old as dirt, but clearly it goes back so far that we can hardly even say when it begins.
Ancient Iran also had a caste system, and so did their ancient religion. Yazidism, one of the oldest major religions known to man, possibly dating back 10,000 years, has caste and origins in Iran. The suggestion is that caste is a regional phenomenon across India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Iran and Northern Iraq. Afghanistan lacks caste, but until the Communist revolution was a semi-feudal society.
The fact remains that Aryan languages displaced Dravidian languages to the South, and all of North India is Aryan-speaking in general, and the people of the North are lighter than the people of the South, and this needs to be explained somehow. Obviously, prior to the Aryan Invasion, Dravidian languages were spoken all over North India. Either their speakers dropped Dravidian in favor of Indo-Iranian or they moved south. Possibly both of these occurred.
1) Vedas are not everything in Hinduism, though they form some of the core. There are many books written in ancient mathematics and science in the post-Vedic period which are as relevant to the history of Hindus, if not more than the Vedas. Look at the books written by Bhaskara (there were two Bhaskaras recorded in history), Aryabhatta, Apastamba, Baudhayana, Varahmihira and several other authors.
Some of them have had their base south of the Vindhyas, which indicates the migration of the culture of the Vedic people southward. I am guessing the actual migration of Vedic people might also have taken place either before or after the completion of the writing of the Vedas (500-1000 BCE). Read about the myth of Agastya and his followers and the Vindhyas.
2) Skin color depends on the climate and gradually over generations (maynot be 3 but lets say about 30 generations) it is sure to change.
3) People speaking different languages derived from a root language (or speaking the root language itself) need not share genetic origins or race. For example, I am an Indian, and if I speak or write in English, a European-originated language, that does not make me European. I bet the same applies to speakers of Indo-European languages.
4) Based on several references in the Vedas against dark-skinned tribes, one cannot assume that all the scriptures of the Hindus (the Sruti and Smriti) were written by the highly-advanced fair-skinned race-preserving cohort known as Aryans who came down from central Asia and pushed the locals down south.
One severe contradiction to this simplistic theory is how come there are references of lower-caste tribals getting upgraded to the higher caste of Brahmins (like Valmiki, Vishwamitra) in the epics written by these same racially-finicky people (the Aryans) that was allowed to be published without censorship. The racial references in the Vedas are at best ambiguous. If the Aryans were the vanguards of Hinduism and they were the creators of the scriptures, how did dark-skinned gods like Vishnu and Shiva find their ways into the texts.
More likely they should have been shown as demons given the benchmarks by which they would have decided. Given all these, there surely exists a possibility of a fair-skinned race coming down from Afghanistan or central Asia and contributing to the creation of Hindu scriptures and merging with the locals, in fact there could be several races of this type migrating in at different points of time. But to say that they did this at the expense of a dark-skinned race or an indigenous race is pure baloney, given the facts.
In fact the genesis of Hindu scriptures could have come from different parts (including the non-Indo-European parts which may include Sanskrit speakers of Dravidian origin) of the Indian subcontinent. Likewise, tribes that had originally entered from the northern borders of India (one of them being the Aryans) must have migrated all over the country giving an inseparable and indistinguishable genetic mixture that we know as the people of India today.
Also the caste system in ancient India up to a period must have been rather fluid and based more on occupation than ancestry as is the popular notion. Hinduism (at least the history and references from Hinduism) seems to have a much greater tolerance for skin color and caste than is touted to be.
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For whatever it’s worth, Jainism is considered one of the few main World Religions. It doesn’t accept the Vedas. I believe almost all religious historians say Hinduism preceded Jainism, but if you go to Jain sites, they claim the opposite and offer detailed history in favor of the view.
This intrigues me but I’m not sure if it has relevance other than that of a narrowly sectarian
disagreement.
Jainism is part of a broader religious movement happenning about 6th century B.C. on North India, which rejected the Vedas. Buddhism is another branch of this. What is usually called Hinduism refers to a revival of the ancient Vedic religion which took place around 2nd-3rd century and displaced Buddhism. That’s why Jains claim their religion predating Hinduism. It may, but it clearly doesn’t predate Vedas.
P.D. about Pre-aryans in North India, what do you know about the hypotesis they may have been Munda rather than Dravidian speakers?
“2) Skin color depends on the climate and gradually over generations (may not be 3 but lets say about 30 generations) it is sure to change.”
In order for skin color (or for that matter, any genetic trait) to change there has to be some sort of selection pressure present. Also there has to be some variation in the colors of individuals so that lighter individuals get selected over darker ones. This initial variation may be the result of random mutations or recombination of alleles. The only way lighter individuals will get selected if light skin confers them some survival advantage over their darker brethren. As you move north from the equator, the solar intensity goes down. The amount of solar intensity is directly proportional to the amount of of Vitamin D an individual can produce on exposure to sunlight. As populations migrated north, darker individuals succumbed to Vitamin D deficiencies more often then the lighter ones before they could reproduce. Over time, a higher percentage of lighter individuals lived long enough to leave offspring carrying their light alleles.
Natural selection could work 10000 years ago because there was no way to get Vitamin D other than exposure to sunlight. In modern times, where you can get Vitamin D supplements, putting Blacks in Canada is unlikely to change their skin color in however many generations (I am assuming here that no interbreeding with whites or other races will take place).
Also, Eskimos did not develop light skin. This was because they could get adequate Vitamin D via seafood and did not need sunlight for that.
Did you know that the early Germanic peoples had their own version of the caste system which in their case was based on hair color instead of skin color? (At least in theory; genetics mixed it up pretty quickly.) Blondes were in charge, brown/red-haired people were warriors, and black-haired people were “thralls”.
It is interesting, and is evidence for the caste system’s having an Indo-European origin rather than an Indian origin. But it could be still a coincidence?
What a stupid comment.
Pure BS.
Wait, I heard that Dravidians are from Iran. they migrated to India before the Aryans…
But, the Aryans are also from Iran..
How come Dravidians aka South Indians are very tanned but the Aryans aka the North Indians are soo pale? But both the aryans and dravidians migrated to India from the same place…
That doesn’t make sense .. How come majority of the dravidians are swarthy but the aryans aren’t?
Besides, the australoids were the first to migrate to India before the aryans and the dravidians..
There is nothing “so pale” about Northern Indians. They make even the swarthiest Italians look pale, relatively speaking.
“I have always felt that Hinduism was nothing more than the ancient religion of India, and there is good evidence for this. Clearly it predates the Aryans. ”
Well, I can’t totally agree with that. The core seems to come with the Indo-european populations even if we can imagine a important local influence.
It doesn’t take a PhD in linguistics/philology to realize that the Hinduism’s Dyaus Pita(r) and the Roman Jupiter and ancient Greek Zeus (sometimes called Zeus Pater) are etymologically and culturally related, or that the mace-wielding (basically a kind of war hammer named Vajra, symbol of the thunder) Indra killing a giant demonic snake can be linked to all the indo-european deities of the ancient polytheistic indo-european pantheons like the slavic Perun, the Baltic Perkunas, the Hittite Tarhun, the Germanic thor / donar, the Gallic Taranis, for instance.
“Skin color depends on the climate and gradually over generations (maynot be 3 but lets say about 30 generations) it is sure to change.”
I disagree with this statement. 30 generations seems too short from my point of view, especially in a very populated region.
“One severe contradiction to this simplistic theory is how come there are references of lower-caste tribals getting upgraded to the higher caste of Brahmins (like Valmiki, Vishwamitra) in the epics written by these same racially-finicky people (the Aryans) that was allowed to be published without censorship”
Yes, apparently in the early time, people could rise in higher social status because of their personal value. Things became more rigid with time.
It also looks like the mtDNA haplogroups (the female lineages) in India (north included) are largely local so that could mean that the biggest part of the invasion was men with few women, and that the indo-european population was largely mixing right at the beginning. I don’t know.
“how did dark-skinned gods like Vishnu and Shiva find their ways into the texts”
Vishnu is described as being of the color of the divine clouds and Shiva is not “ancient” and he is not specifically depicted as dark-skinned, I believe.
Agni is described red-skinned and it’s obviously no racial allusion.
I’m not sure we can really use that argumenation to reach conclusions.
@ Sleep : you’re referring to the Rígsthula * and the blond jarl, the red-haired karl and the black-haired thraell, but it might not be understood literrally. It could be symbolic as among the indo-european culture the colors are associated with social orders and castes (caste is said ‘varna’ in India which means color, if I’m not mistaken) – in reference to the color of the skies apparently – generally white, red and black (even among the Kalash of Hindu Kush, the populations were described as being part of the black robes, red robes and white robes, apparently).
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADg_(Norse_god)#R.C3.ADgsthula
Miss kitty : “How come majority of the dravidians are swarthy but the aryans aren’t?”
They’re not the same people ? They’re not actually coming from the same place ?
Yes, there were Aryans in Iran too, that doesn’t mean they originated from Iran.
>Valmiki was a Tribal for sure,but Vishwamitra was a Kshatriya king.
>Blue skinned gods cannot give us a clue to Racial acceptance,etc.Shiva drank the Hala-hala poison that came out while the churning of the Ocean was taking place and hence became blue.However,I dont know what is the blue represents for Vishnu,but there is some significance.
>Not stopping you from using it,but ‘Aryan’ and ‘Dravidian’ are sloppy terms.Besides,the Vedic peoples were never Nordic or Alpine.
They were what they were,Irano-Afghan/Indid with Gracile Indid , Indo Brachid and North Indid as sub races.
>Aryan means noble,or sir,a person of aristrocratic descent or an ideal man(as in the Vedas).Aryan languages also include the North Indian languages like Hindi,Marathi,basically Devanagri script.
>Dravid means South.Eg: I am a Brahmin of the Pancha Dravida Brahmin sub group.
>’an’ is a suffix of the English language,which further proves these were never for race
>I am sure some Nordic supremacist must have been studying the Vedas and all of a sudden fallen in love with the word Aryan , when their culture really has nothing to do with ours.
>Though a slightly off topic,the idea of beauty is epitomised by our Gods and godesses and they look obviously of Indid/North Indid raciality in painting and sculptors,though if you got to say Thailand,their idols indeed have mongoloid features coupled with Indian accessories.
Iyengar, you got some of it wrong.
>Shiva or Vishnu weren’t blue. They were dark, the colour of clouds (Neel-megha Shyam). And Shiva’s throat was scorched black not his whole body because he stopped the poison in his throat. That’s why he is called Neelkantha.
>In India, Aryan never meant a Nobleman or an Aristocrat, it means a man of noble character. Ravana and Kauravas were called Anarya though they were Nobles. Vibhishana, a Rakshasa was called Arya. The Pandavas were called Anarya because they failed to act while Kauravas were insulting Darupadi.
>Are you sure that the literal meaning of Dravid is south? “Dravida” was a Sanskrit word denoting the dark-skinned people from the south and their region. Even Tamils referred to themselves as “Damila” not “Dravida”.
valmiki was agni sharma…a brahmin of the clan of angiras who hasd fallen down the ladder and rose…the caste upgradation happens rarely…parashurama is supposed to have awoken the dead warriors and baptised them brahmins….Rama also does the same hence some gujrati brahmins have a name desai ( reference to land)…these happened as either could not find brahmins populating the regions…not always…need to wait for next avatar for an upgradation…degradations always happen…as with the tribe of ekalavya coz they fought on a battle with krishna they fell from kshatriya to sudras
Also,is there really a difference between Dravidians and Australoids?I thought all dark skinned people of India are Australoids but have sub races like Veddoid and Negrito?
no.. Australoids and dravidians are completely different people
Iyengar : “Besides,the Vedic peoples were never Nordic or Alpine.
They were what they were,Irano-Afghan/Indid with Gracile Indid , Indo Brachid and North Indid as sub races.”
That was a very long time ago.
We can’t really know what Indo-iranian populations looked like originally (assuming the Indo-aryan invasion theory is the correct hypothesis).
Irano-Afghan… Indid… not european-looking.
Maybe these populations were already quite mixed when they arrived in north India, I don’t know, but a quite Europoid phenotype is definitely not to be excluded.
The bronze age Andonovo culture (supposed to be culturally/linguistically Indo-iranian) population was apparently clearly Europoid (not to say phenotypically (and genetically) “european”). It is assumed to be the source of Indo-european expansion in south Asia by many :
http://www.springerlink.com/content/4462755368m322k8/
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1691686
These peoples are mostly from east Afghanistan :
http://pastmist.wordpress.com/2009/02/22/afghanistan/
These peoples are mostly from north Pakistan :
http://pastmist.wordpress.com/2009/02/21/nord-du-pakistan-hunzaburusho-et-autres/
http://pastmist.wordpress.com/2009/02/21/nord-pakistan-kalash-du-chitral/
These peoples are from Iran :
http://pastmist.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/iran-perse/
These peoples are mostly from north India :
http://pastmist.wordpress.com/2009/02/21/inde/
And we also know that there have been indo-european migrations in northwestern China in Xinjiang (Tokharians and Sakas), and look some of the phenotypes :
http://pastmist.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/6/
These phenotypes are rare (in a few regions there are actually not that rare) but still more frequent than Dravidian or south Asian phenotypes in Europe, right ?
that lady on the first pic representing North Indians is actually a South Indian.
Nice cherry picking, FX. Unusually fair traits in South Asia come from the Scythians, White Huns and other Central Asian people. The people in those photographs are almost identical to people seen among the Kazakhs, Tajiks and other groups in that region. It’s just wishfull thinking to associate them with the historical Aryans. The Aryans were Indo-Afghans and other darker Caucasoid types. Those types abound in Northern India and pop up in the South as well. Only South Asian tribals seem to lack that phenotype. And South Asian phenotypes ARE present in Europe in the form of Gypsies/Roma as well as some non-Gypsy Balkans people and some Andalusian Spaniards.
I used to post on an old forum years ago where there was a racist Indian guy who hated black people and loved white people. I would tell him, “Indians…yeah those guys just bruthas with turbans” and watch him go bat shit crazy. It was pretty damn hilarious.
Many Indians don’t like being associated with black people.. In the Indian culture, black skin is associated with the dark skinned aborigines of India and they are at the bottom of the caste system in India.
As a South Asian I can tell you it has more to do with behavior and perceived behavioral stereotypes. Black skin is not associated with dark skinned aborigines since extremely dark skin can be found in all castes in India. The full gamut of dark to light runs even in the same South Asian family.
The features of many people of African descent are not considered attractive to many Indians, even if those “black” people are considerably lighter skinned than many Indians.
There are certain features most Indians consider attractive, and most Ethiopian and Eritrean people have those features and in fact, to us, look very typically Indian. Now the Jay-Z type features are a whole other ballgame and are not considered attractive to us. Tupac up, Jay-Z down.
I don’t like black people either.. esp the ghetto ones
She looks like a horrendously ugly steriotypical gothic white girl. Geez what a filthy piece of trash. Coat yourself with some golden fake tan like nearly every other white girl, spruce yourself up.
I’ve seen many Indians that are even darker than black people. I used to have a buddy in junior high was from Sri Lanka, he was darker than me. And I’m dark. He was dravidian. Very narrow nose and caucasion features, but black as the ace of spades.
Big deal, some East Asians are white as snow.
and maybe they might be mixed in the process
South Asians run the gamut from very dark to fairly light, even in one family.
“I don’t like black people either.. esp the ghetto ones”
Black people don’t like you either. 🙂
I like well-behaved, upper-class, educated, intelligent and strong blacks, those I can live with any day. I don’t like the ghetto ones or the obnoxious stupid arrogant ones and these can include middle class blacks.
Ghetto black people especially wouldn’t like her.
Erm.LMAO at Tulios comments.The Sri Lankan guy is probably a late paleolithic-early neolithic dark skinned Europoid or he is a Veddoid.The former is almost not found and is probably an extinct race,Bipasha Basu exemplifies what the phenotype may have been. Fx,most of the people in the Paki-Afghan ones are Iranid sub variety of the Indic race.The Kalash are direct descent from the Caucasus no doubt.Blondism may be a recessive trait OR a possible backward migration from Europe or Alexander’s army though thats a long shot. Indids/Irano-Afghans came from Afghanistan to Persia[Elamites] then to Pakistan and NW India[as Indus Valley people then society reformed]and finally as Upper Caste Vedic Hindus.
However the the Western Chinese Caucasions =O fascinating!
David Frawley disproves the invasion and says the Indus Valley people were a pre-Vedic Aryan peoples and Hinduism and caste system may be as old as the Indus Valley itself.The Weddids/Austros were never pushed to the south they were all over India before the Indics came here.Dravidian isnt a race anyways..some people consider Austro Tamils dravidian,some consider Indus inhabitants Dravidian,some consider dark skinned Europoids as Dravidians.Its confusing-lets stick to anthropological terms =D
A chestnut brown hair colour is not uncommon in North India.Indics are not a mixed peoples they are Europoid not Europid.Ok,the purity is subject to debate but we can all clearly see which phenotypes occur in which castes.I have a lot of coloured eyed relatives,I dont think its a big deal.South Indians are Australoid and Proto Mongoloid mixed.Infact I believe that Mongoloids before transition were something Australoid like.
Hey,is there an english translation to that website?
The Vedas actually represent a conflict between darkness and light not in the literal sense.They describe their enemies as anasas(without nose not snubed nose) and backward pointing feet.They sound like demons rather than aboriginal tribes.
@ Iyengar :
Well, I disagree.
I think many of the peoples on the pictures are looking “European” or close. As for the fact that many have also phenotypical south Asian characteristics from the south Asian population of the region … well, duh! What do you expect ?
These population are mixing as a minority for like 4,000 years, how could it be otherwise ?
Most of the time it’s more south Asians with a certain amount of “European” genes than Europeans with south Asian genes (even if the peoples on the pictures seem to have generally a important percentage of “european”-like genes).
It’s significative that the regions where “European” phenotypes are the most frequent are in isolated mountainous regions of the Hindu-kush, like Nuristan, where mixing was obviously much less frequent.
Look, there are many hints (archeological, genetical, linguistical) that seem to support the Kurgan hypothesis.
An Indo-iranian invasion from outside India is very likely.
Not much is left to the imagination.
During bronze age, Kazakhstan was the place of the Andronovo culture which is strongly believed to be an Indo-european culture (and more exactly, an Indo-iranian culture).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture#Ancient_DNA
“A 2004 study also established that, during the bronze/iron age period, the majority of the population of Kazakhstan (part of the Andronovo culture during bronze age), was of west Eurasian origin (with mtDNA haplogroups such as U, H, HV, T, I and W), and that prior to the thirteenth-seventh century BC, all Kazakh samples belonged to European lineages. ”
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1691686
And south Siberian population of Andronovo were found to be often fair-skinned, blue/green-eyed and light-haired.
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/4462755368m322k8/
AS we can see in the pictures I gave the link, in every region there is or was an Indo-european population in Asia, you can find phenotypes that match the phenotypes of the bronze age Andronovo peoples of south Siberia as described in the study (or at least they share some of their specific characteristics).
Also, the Y-DNA haplogroup R1a1 was by far majoritary in this population. This haplogroup is found from India (especially the north) to north-western Europe. Big clue again.
I don’t believe in such coincidences. All this is related, IMO.
Thx fx. You have really done your homework here. I am just now looking at this Krasnoyarsk stuff. Very interesting. That an Indo-Iranian IE civilization existed in the Andronovo region and then moved down into South Asia is, at this point, a given. It’s not even controversial anymore. It is sad that so many Indians reject these facts out of nationalism and national chauvinism, the sump of all intellectual theory.
It really doesn’t matter if you call it an Aryan Invasion or not. There was a movement of Indo-Iranians out of Andronovo down into Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan and North India about 3,500 years ago.
I don’t really have a problem with basically Caucasoid (by skulls) Dravidians being called that. It’s interesting to theorize that they are an ancient branch of the Mediterranean Caucasoid race. They do look a bit like Lebanese, Palestinians, Iraqis, etc.
Elamites circa 12,000 YBP were probably an ancient proto-Dravidian movement into Iran and then India.
I don’t have problems distinguishing between a Dravidian type that does not look North Indid and neither resembles Veddoids. Veddoids are clearly a separate group. Some Tamils and a number of the Adivasi tribals seem to have a Veddoid – Australoid appearance. I don’t see why we can’t distinguish between them and the more stabilized and Caucasoid Mediterranean Dravidian types in Cristina’s series.
I think Cristina’s Dravidians are more progressive and evolved Veddoid types. Surely they are mixed with North Indid too. And clearly more North Indids are mixed with Dravidian. And it seems clear that there is often a Veddoid – Australoid mixture going on, even in some North Indids and surely in some Dravidians. All of these types have mixed to some degree.
R. Lindsay : “It’s interesting to theorize that they are an ancient branch of the Mediterranean Caucasoid race. They do look a bit like Lebanese, Palestinians, Iraqis, etc.”
Hmm … for some reason, at the moment I didn’t think about it but I think it might be related, at least partly for these phenotypes, to the presence of the Y-DNA haplogroup J2, a “semitoid” signature found in India, Pakistan, Iran, middle/near-east (including Turkey), Balkans and south Europe.
They are thought by many to be representative of the population that brought agriculture in Europe several thousands years ago.
Thanx, Robert.
Indeed, I basically agree with your post.
To each his own I suppose,
I cite Physical Anthropologists like Joseph Denicker,Von Eickstedt,Lundman and Carleton S. Coon and David Frawley on the theories and stuff.A family member of mine got his dna tested and he got West Eurasian Y Dna and mtdna.I have got to get mine tested soon ..
“I think many of the peoples on the pictures are looking European or close. As for the fact that many have also phenotypical south Asian characteristics from the south Asian population of the region well, duh! What do you expect ?Most of the time it’s more south Asians with a certain amount of “European” genes than Europeans with south Asian genes (even if the peoples on the pictures seem to have generally a important percentage of “european”-like genes).”
There is no South Asian race?What you get here are Indids,Weddids/Paleo Mongoloids and South East Asian Mongoloids.
Indics/Irano Afghans were born when Near Eastern Agricultural Revolutionaries – J2 ydna came from Sumeria to Iran(Elam) and merged with Pastoralists from Afghanistan who came to Iran – R1 ydna
The paleolithic inhabitants of India before the arrival of west eurasians,most of India is weddid . H ydna and M mtdna being the strongest haplogroups is a reflection of that. Although we upper castes have those haplogroups the least.(not denying the presence)Brahmins and Kshatriyas (also some Vaishyas) – like Pakistanis/Iranians/Afghanistani – have the highest amount of west eurasian mtdna
All of the people in “India” regardless of caste have both weddid & Indid admixture which is what makes “Indians” to look alike.But we all know certain phenotypes are more frequent in the specific castes.The paleo-mongoloid phenotype very frequent in the dalit and low caste.Europoid phenotype most consistant and frequent in the High Castes.
Im not saying that high castes are European or low castes are Congoid.There is similarity due to intermixing,but the phenotypes are very clear.
Looking European..by anthropological terms that would be Europoid i.e Resembling or approaching Europid – i.e One of the major subspecies or races of Homo sapiens, indigenous to western Eurasia and North Africa. The most important subvarieties or evolutionary tendencies are Cro-Magnoid (including Alpinoid), Indid, Mediterranid, Nordid, Orientalid and Taurid.
I believe Europeans and Indo Iranians have the same ancestor,one went to Europe and others went to Eurasia/Middle East/South Asia.Now we are like Apples and Pears.
PS: fx,Are you African American?
“Robert : I think Cristina’s Dravidians are more progressive and evolved Veddoid types. Surely they are mixed with North Indid too. And clearly more North Indids are mixed with Dravidian. And it seems clear that there is often a Veddoid – Australoid mixture going on, even in some North Indids and surely in some Dravidians. All of these types have mixed to some degree.”
Agreed,actually many ARE Nord Indid phenotypically in those pics.The chick with the light eyes and dark skin looks exotic.India is the mongrel sub continent,but you cant call ’em mutts now , they are racial clines.But one question?Veddoids,Negritos and Gondids are sub races of Australoid/Weddid?
Anyways most Indians look like Veddoids – sharp featured Austros.It seems there has been an evolution.
Iyengar : “I cite Physical Anthropologists like Joseph Denicker,Von Eickstedt,Lundman and Carleton S. Coon and David Frawley on the theories and stuff”
And I cite very recent mainstream genetical studies and rather recent archeological elements.
I’ll be quite short (but from my point of view, cogent enough). Asking me to believe that the genes expressing in these individuals are native of south Asia and have nothing to do with “European” genes (that I assume to be related to the bronze age Andronovo population that is described by scientists as phenotypically and genetically “European” and that was living quite close geographically of the regions we are talking of) is like asking me to believe in Santa Claus :
http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghanistankabulgirlen.jpg
http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/nuristanigirl.jpg
http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/_afghanistan_nuristani.jpg
http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/_pakistan_chitral.jpg
http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/northernpakistan_kashmir.jpg
—
“PS: fx,Are you African American?”
I’m white and European.
The last guy looks like a depigmented typical ‘Indian’ Europoid – Australoid mixed.
Many of them look White European – this is probably due to
1)Backward migration from Europe,there has been proof that this has happened
2)They are descended directly from Caucasus,like the Kalash people
3)Remnants of Alexander’s army intermingling with local Afghanid sub variety of the Indic race,as he did conquer Iran-Afghanistan belt
What do Persians,Afghans,Pakis and some Indians predominantly look like?
considerably tall,robust,pale skinned(varies from fair to light brown to dusky) and with Europoid features and light eyes may also occur.
Indic/Irano Afghan is the Europoid sub race of India and a primary element in Iran,Afghanistan and Pakistan
Indids/Irano-Afghans came from Afghanistan to Persia[Elamites] then to Pakistan and NW India[Indus Valley people] and finally as Upper Caste Hindus when Indus society reformed to Vedic.
Indids and Europeans both share the R ydna haplogroup which more than likely originated from Central Asia , and west eurasian mtdna and Europoid features.
Roughly 15-25% of India should be genetic Indids mostly NW India and Upper Castes in general.
With R1 ydna evolving seperately in Europe and Afghanistan and R2 ydna evolving in North India or Georgia.
About the dark skinned people in India:
Its interesting how both types are quite similar but there are certain parts that distinguishes them well. The dark skinned europoidc migrant has a narrower nose. The nasal bridge is thinner and the nostril is not flared. The australoid has a spread out nasal alae. The europoid has a more oval-ish face while the australoid has a very round face. Fats tend to deposit more on the face – cheek area – for the australoid. Also the australoid has a very proganathic jaw.
Dark skinned people in India are now predominantly weddid indo-australoid racial type mixed with a dark europoid type(http://www.indiatravelite.com/discoverworld/singapore1.jpg) that migrated to South India even before the major neolithic migration of West Eurasians.
“PS: fx,Are you African American?
I’m white and European. ”
Yeah thanks,was just asking ..
Bipasha basu is not even dark..
she doesn’t represent dark skinned europid people in India..
Besides, are you north Indian or South Indian?
She is dark , dont go by promotional pictures and clips.
She has lovely features though,she’s a dark skinned Europoid type that migrated in the late Paleolithic-early Neolithic age.
I have a feeling that this component (“Elamite” migration 12-17,000 YBP) is a heavy component of the “Dravidians.” They do look something like ancient Middle Easterners. In addition to Elam, they may have also come from the Levant region, especially Syria and Lebanon.
Elamites are Indids and the major sub race is Iranid.
Persians share the same type of R1a ydna as Afghans, Pakis and Indians i.e the North Western evolved R1a.
I read this paper a while ago and here’s what it says about Iranian haplogroups(I copypasted the Indid ones):
Indid Y dna in Persia
R1a – 17% , J2 – 21% and R*/R2 – 3% = 41%
Indid mtdna in Persia
West eurasian – 90%
40% of Persia = confirmed Indids on both father and mother lineage
Persia was the ancient Indid hub the home of the Elamites.
Hopefully Elam and Indus will one day reunite thats a long shot I know lol =P
On the ydna Persians are genetically mixed between Indids/Elamites [R1a + R*/R2 + J2 ydna] ,Europids [R1b ydna] , Caucasids [G ydna] , Mongoloid [NOP ydna]and Somalid [E1b1]
the later invaders from Assyria, Arabia, Caucasus, Somalia and Central Asia raped the Elamite women and hence the father lineage is varied in comparison to the relatively homogenous mother lineage
ELAMITES = IRANO AFGHANS
not dark skinned primitve West Eurasians
I highly reccomend a book called “Proof of Vedic Culture’s Global Existence” by Stephen Knapp.
Ok, Firstly there was NO Aryan Invasion of India! There have been thousands of archaeologists, historians, linguists, scientists, experts etc. which can prove this. To suggest that a primitive nomadic group of “Aryans” crossed mountain and desert on chariots?! invaded and conquered the advanced Vedic “Aryans'” civilization is ludicrous if you consider that the Vedic’s invented everything you can think of (literally). We would not be able to do shit today without what was discovered in Vedic India thousands and thousands of years ago. India predates Egypt, Babylon and all other Civilizations by tens of thousands of years. In the Vedas themselves they talk about using electricity, airplanes, they talk about ridiculous astronomic facts, space-cities and detailed instructions on how to construct space-ships! They also mastered weaponry – they would of used some kind of insanely technologically advanced bazooka or some shit, it would be grim for invaders, (obviously I’m exaggerating a bit) but you get the picture.
So what the evidence shows is that the Vedic people actually travelled west from Southern and Eastern India through Mesopotamia, Albania and Europe bringing their language, culture, religion and discoveries. So these gods of Greece and Rome are probably mimics of the Vedic gods and mimics of stories of gods from the Vedic texts.
Links debunking Aryan-Invasionism —
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/solid_evidence_debunking_aryan_invasion.htm
http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/aryan-harappan-myth.html
http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_link.html
By the way the word “Aryan” in Sanskrit actually means someone who is pure and on the path of truth, it isn’t limited to Indians or any other people.
And also the word “Hinduism” doesn’t exist, it was coined by the Macedonians probably when they couldn’t pronounce “s” of the Sindus river, neither could the later Muslim invaders pronounce “Sindhu”, so now we have Indus Valley and “Hinduism” which can be used to describe anything fucking Indian really and should not be used in describing the Vedic religion of “Sanatana Dharma” or “the Eternal Religion”.
Additionally remember the illuminati with the British Empire used the “Hindu” word frantically because they wanted to obliterate Vedic existence. I believe one British military general said something like – “The only way you’ll colonize the Indians is if you take away their religion”. With their Indologists they colonized India intellectually just like they were colonized imperially; the Indologists blasphemously mistranslated the Vedas and limited the oldest literature on Earth to “primitive mythology”. Now we have the history of British oppression and Muslim invaders destroying immeasurable numbers of Vedic temples.
Just please research shit.
Sorry, I don’t debate fascists, Hindutvas and Indian nationalists (same thing) on here. Indian nationalism is a cancer on the body of humanity. It needs to be excised!
Hello, humans did not do any of that shit by themselves. It was divine knowledge only given to those who deserved it by gods.
There was no ‘Aryan Invasion’ as such. Instead there was cohabitation of different people from ethnicities and cultures. It is highly probable that foreign tribes migrated in India from north west at least 7,000 years ago and these were Indo Iranian people. I believe that they were of the same stock as the ancient Iranians and they shared the same culture. And it seems there were some disagreement between the Indo Aryans and and the Iranians either after or while the former migrated further east of India. This can be deducted from a comparative study of the Vedas and Avesta. The gods of the Vedic people became the demons of the Iranian people and vice versa.
These Indo Aryans were most probably the joint founders of the Indus Saraswati civilization along with the so called Dravidian or Elamite people. Evidence of that is provided by the discovery of vedic altars and other accesories as well as idols and totems which are still in use in the modern Hinduism on the Mohenjodaro and Harrapan sites. The majority of the Vedic or Indo Aryans people have been absorbed into the local population but there are still descendants of the historical vedic people in some parts of India and these are the European looking upper caste hindus.They are mostly from the Brahmin community. And may be a few members from the Kshatriya and Vaishya communities as well. However the big majority of the Indian population , apart from the Mongoloids of north east India , are the result of admixture between ancient north and south populations.
BNP (Black National Party)
The BNP (Black National Party) has been created to expedite the work of the Race Equality Secret Service (RESS).
The BNP (Black National Party) gets stronger as “STORMFRONT” gets weaker.
http://raceequalitysecretservice.blogspot.com/2010/02/bnp-black-national-party.html
Hey, found this and the “Paper Adds support AIT” article and discussions both very interesting. I am a dalit and have been through the caste thing all my life. Still in my 30’s I would like to tell you that I have seen and met different types of people in India, however there are differences. Firstly, there is a “last name” thing in India which sometimes are so insulting for us dalits. When you meet someone or go to some friends house or go to some government office they will ask you your name. If you dont tell last name they will try to ask you your last name. Now they will keep talking to you but in their mind they will keep thinking which caste must the person belong. Last names typically suggest what caste or community the person belongs too. Because of shame many dalits have changed their last names similar to brahmin or other high castes. Now the person decides which caste you must be belonging then he would match your manners, talking style, skin color and eye color(yes eye color, which is blue in case of most elite brahmin class and I have never seen any other caste eyes to be blue). So if you have changed your last name and pretend to be from high caste then the person will ask you your native place(mostly happens in cities). Now the person will try discuss and try to match if the region(native place) does have many people related to that caste. Its all bull shit here in India. We dalits have come to know so many things due to Phule, Ambedkar and many great personalities otherwise we were kept illetrate for generations. Now the brahmins will dissaprove AIT and every thing that makes them look morons. But it is a proven fact that this priestly class ruled for thousands of years and is still holding all high positions in the society (the government, the biggest opposition party, media(tv media especially), officers etc). We dalits still live in matrix designed by this high caste people in which they make us feel good when they want to and make us suffer as and when they wish. The biggest sorrow for me is that this caste division is now such a root that every caste compares itself higher or lower than the others. This is why even if the brahmins are dragged away from this country the other higher caste people will still try to dominate. Thats the tragedy. But one thing will be good if brahmins go away, the superstition and so many ill things that they feed in the society will come to a halt and then Indians can work on a true united country. Till then its long way to go….because they say that the country has become free…but we dalits and shudras are still ruled by foriegners. I loved all the theory, but if you have any questions which are related to practical suffering of dalits, just shoot your questions, will try to give you the best answers.
Dear Neo,
I don’t believe in caste system at all as it’s an obsolete and outdated system.Shame on those so called Brahmans who have been abusing the caste system and inflicting so much pain on the ‘lower caste’ people. The Vedas never approved of such ‘unbrahmanic’ behaviour and they didn’t give much importance to the caste system.It is when the Puranic period gradually took over that caste discrimination really started, according to most historians. Besides,in the Gita Lord Krishna said that the true devotee of God should see the same Atma in all living beings. A true Brahman will never go against the teachings of Lord Krishna. The Gita contains the true religion of all hindus and whole humanity as well.
Let me tell you that recent studies by scientists from Harvard university based on genetics have shown that the vast majority of Indians have the same genetic make up, irrespective of caste. What is even more surprising is that these studies also revealed that people from the tribal caste from South India and known as Chenchu shows smilar genetic makeup as some people in Punjab ! This eventually shows how ancient both populations are. The so called upper caste Indians are therefore as much Indian as you,Neo. Their ancestors have been in India since at least the last ten thousand years. This has also been confirmed by Professor Stephen Oppenheimer from Cambridge university and other scientists as well. They say that India’s population has not witnessed any major alteration in their genetic pattern during at least the last ten thousand years……..
Dear Dinesh,
I always know that a brahmin or a hindutva person always tries to justify what happened was not good but we shudras should not leave Hinduism and still trust the Brahmins. Okay I will reply specific to your answers here..first of all, you say about genetics and how brahmins and other castes are same genetically and you have proof. To correct you, the reason I am writing on this blog is there is clear proof that you aryans came from some other parts. I agree that there must be a lot of mix and whatever, still I being a shudra have personally seen skin color, eye color differences between a brahmin person and others. There may be other factors involved but the point is you guys have always made sure that a pure gene is passed through to your generations and I personally know a girl who is chittpavan brahman and has blue eyes. I am being told that chittpavan brahmins are the most purest and the highest types of brahmins. Regarding Gita, our great leaders have already studied your vedas and all mantras and come to a definite conclusion. No amount of you or any one justifying or mincing words will make us believe you. For your reference kindly go through this for Gita.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/4397889
Then what about Hindu religion which insists castes so much and talks about danger of “Adulteration of stock” (corruption of castes by intermixing)? It is even mentioned in Bhagavad Gita.
What about Kalki, who will come to restore caste system?
We can see that there is a divine role in this caste nonsense.
Also, I am very happy with the AIT thing being true, because it is said that the brahmins since were warriors did not bring women with them (no warriors do) and hence they married native womens and still today everyone knows that brahmin womens are still tortured in the name of religion. There are many cultures which have nothing to do with Vedic religion but this corrupt brahmins have always tried to incorporate these cultures in to their religion and now they call it Hinduism. If you ask any hindutva guy why am I a hindu, then they will say hindu is not a religion but a way of living of the people of bharat. Way of living???? I have so many things to say, but I dont know I you all will be interested. Let me know. Will tell you.
Please tell me everything that you would like to say. Why don’t you agree with the’ way of living’ statement ? I feel really sorry for the so called Dalits and Shudras for the inhuman treatment they have been enduring since many centuries. But you must not blame all the Brahmans and other upper castes hindus. If Hindu religion is still alive today , it’s thanks to people like Swami Vivekananda and Swami Dayananda. And today you have got people like Swami Ramdev who is doing a fantastic job for the upliftment of the hindu masses irrespective of castes.
See Dinesh, You are sorry, we are sorry lets everyone be sorry. You please keep following the most hypocritical religion on earth and we dont care. Infact we dont understand also why are we a hindu. For muslims, christians the young child has to go through some ritual to become a member of their religion. Infact brahmins have the wearing thread cermony to become a brahmin. But all other castes are default by birth hindu, even if they dont want to be. Whatever you say about Vivekanand or Dayanand or whatever they did, after so many years its clear that their ideas are followed by only selected few. If that was not the case than so much idol worship, superstitions, babas, satsangs and so much money would not be involved in temples. So whenever a shudra rises and shouts you give him examples or these saints but these are not implemented by brahmins. Ask all brahmins to stop all the temples and throw away the idols. I bet you, they will answer you such that you will stop preaching again. Also, Swami Ramdev was doing yoga and then I saw he suddenly started saying about god, hinduism and other things. So you mean, do yoga and become a hindu. Because of these gurus a form of exercise has become advertisement of a religion. Shame on brahmins and gurus. I know lot of babas who spent life f0r poor and dirty people but your brahmin media never recognizes them. To hell with it. Know about gadge baba, jyotiba phule, shivaji, ahilyabai holkar and you will come to know true india. And now for your favourite religion, I have a link for you. The book is written by the writer of Indian constitution, the great Babasaheb Ambedkar. Read it yourself if you are a true human instead of a brahmin and join me in condeming this stupid religion. Let me know if you have any doubts. Thanks to Phule and Ambedkar that a shudra is replying to you on Internet and in English and gave us knowledge, which your brahmins denied for thousands of years. Jai Bheem!
http://www.ambedkar.org/riddleinhinduism/21A1.Riddles%20in%20Hinduism%20PART%20I.htm#r01
I can agree with you regarding certain aspects of indian life and hindu culture. But first let me tell you that I am not any so called upper caste hindu. And I am not defending casteism or casteist Brahmins or Hindutva. I am not an Indian and I don’t live in India. I live in Mauritius where hindus are majority and caste system is not practiced in the same way as in India. I am a genuine Hindu who believes in justice and equality which are the hallmarks of the original Vedic religion., the Sanatan Dharma. I have learnt how to make the difference between Dogma and Dharma, between Brahminism and Dharma. I can not just throw away the whole basket just because of a few rotten apples. I will certainly blame unscrupulous Brahmans but not our ancient Rishis who showed us the way to obtain Moksha or attain Nirvana. People like yourself have been victims of Brahminism , that’s why people like Shri Krishna and Gautam Buddha were born. To get rid of Brahminism and reestablish Dharma.I agree that even the Gita has been a victim of unscruplous Brahmans who have inserted unwarranted slokas in order to justify the caste system. But I know what the real Gita preaches. I look up to Sri Rama , Sri Krishna, Gautam Buddha, Adi Shankaracharya and our ancien Rishis Valmiki,Vyas,Kapila,Vashistha among others. So, I condemn casteist Brahmins and other casteist Hindus and on the other I salute these personalities whom I have just mentioned and who are the real guardians of Sanatan Dharma.
I think too much focus is given to where the genes originated and too little to what processes formed modern castes. The processes — occupationally based endogamy and selection — that gave rise to the castes of India are the same that sculpted the gene pool of European Jews. To my knowledge, no other group of people has undergone anything similar (or at least similar enough).
And yes, this is why I think Brahmins, Baniyas, Kayasthas, Vellalars, Reddys, Aroras, etc. are so intelligent.
There is serious error in the comment, as Vishvamitra wasn’t a ‘low caste tribal’, he was a descendant of the Lunar Kshtriya or Warrior caste. Whoever posted the comment doesn’t have as basic knowledge as this.