Time To Apologize For The Deicide?

In a comment on the We Killed Jesus and We are Proud Of It! post, a Colombian commenter says that I am wrong for suggesting that the Jews apologize for the Deicide:

Apologizing for Deicide? that’s outright moronic. Deicide charges were leveled against the Jews by the early Church fathers, who were conveniently oblivious to the fact that the very first Christians were Jews themselves. And were consistently used as an excuse to persecute the Jews in Europe for centuries. It sounds to me like a lame PC attempt to create a Jewish counterpart to white guilt.

Some of the usual arguments are laid out here. Jesus himself was Jew, and so were those who killed him, so the charge is absurd on its face.
However, Talmudic Judaism, or modern-day Judaism, is clearly the spiritual descendant of the Pharisees. It was the Pharisees and Phariseeism that Jesus and his disciples were fleeing in terror from. Recall the NT sections where the Disciples say, “The Jews are after us!” as they run and hide all over the Galilee.
Any honest Rabbi will tell you that they were hiding from the followers of the Pharisees. The same honest Rabbi will also tell you that Talmudic Judaism is the spiritual descendant of Phariseeism. In fact, a Conservative Rabbi admitted both of those things to me.
Super-Jews make a big deal about Christianity being de facto anti-Semitic by the very nature of the New Testament.
Making Christianity safe for the Abe Foxman crowd would mean excising the entire NT. That leaves Christians with the OT, at which time all of us Christians may as well just to convert to Judaism and get it over with. The fundamentalist Protestants are very Judeophilic, and we can see this in their fetishism of the decrepit and frankly Jewish Old Testament. In that sense, paradoxically, they are less Christian than an NT-only “Jesusist” like me.
In a way, the Super Jews are right. Let’s not kid ourselves. Jesus, as Reform a Jew as ever lived, came, said, “I’m the Messiah, and the Law is abrogated.” The law is the Hebraic Laws and Rules that the Jews live under.
In his revolutionary overturning of this archaic and reactionary code, Jesus offered a new code, one of Mercy. Mercy is clearly absent from much of the OT. The God of the OT is clearly not one of Mercy either; he’s a cruel and capricious fellow, but He’s the God of the Jews, so they can have him.
The God of the NT is a different fellow altogether. He’s forgiving and kind, and the fire and brimstone, the genocides, the wars, the ethnic cleansing, the leveling of cities with fire and turning humans into Dresden-like fried pillars – that’s all under the dam, past and gone.
The Jews were offered a choice – to follow the new Messiah or to be passed over. They didn’t follow him, so their religion was abrogated, and the torch was passed to the new religion, the Christianity. To us Christians, Judaism is old hat. At one time, sure, it was the law of the land all right, but we’ve since moved on.
To us, Judaism is spiritual roadkill. Sure it’s part of our heritage, but so was Homo Erectus. We’ve moved along now. There is no Judeo-Christian religion anymore than there is a Judeo-Muslim religion or an Islamo-Christian religion. They’re just not the same thing. Pat Robertson and all are on theological thin ice shilling for the Jews of Israel. Why not shill for the Hindus or the Muslims? It’s makes about as much sense theologically.
This leads us to Replacement Theology. I’m a follower of this. The Jews have been replaced by the Christians. Judaism has been replaced by Christianity. Further, the Jews no longer get Israel either. After the NT, the (Christian) Church is the New Israel. The Jews contract with that land was abrogated also. Sure, God gave the land to the Jews, but the NT abrogates that deed of title.
Another argument against the Deicide charge is leveled by Jews. Even if we did it, they say, it was a good thing, as the Deicide was necessary for the unfolding of Christianity. Well of course. But that’s not why I say apologizing is a good idea.
The Jewish religion, in particular the Orthodox, has traditionally taken the position that Jesus was a Jewish heretic who was tried in a Jewish court, convicted, and received appropriate punishment. The Talmud is full of hostile references to Jesus. It’s true that Jesus was a Jew, but it’s also true that Talmudic Judaism is the spiritual heir to the Pharisees.
The Jews want it both ways. According to their religion, they state that Jewish was a Jewish heretic who was tried by the Jews and got what he deserved. Then, to the Gentiles, they deny this. Some Orthodox are honest and say, “Hey, we did kill him, and it was a good thing!” This happens quite a bit in Israel, by the way. The usual response of the other Jews is the typical, “Are you trying to start a pogrom?” screeching.
I don’t really care. What’s done is done. But I think it is grossly unfair for the Jews to demand that other religions like the Catholics amend their anti-Jewish teachings while at the same time, the Jews refuse to amend their anti-Christian teachings. But then, it’s just typical Jewish hypocrisy du jour. Hypocrisy goes with Jews like lox goes with cream cheese. Jewish hypocrisy is related to Jewish hyperethnocentrism in that all nationalists are hypocrites. Think about it.
Sure it’s dumb to hold folks responsible for something their ancestors did 2000 years ago, but if the Jews are still crowing about it (the Orthodox are) and if the Jewish religion still stubbornly states, “We did it and what about it?”, an apology certainly makes sense.
As a philosemite, in a way I’m interested in what’s good for the Jews. One thing that’s bad for the Jews is anti-Semitism. My position is that Jews promoting anti-Semitism is bad for the Jews, so don’t do it, Jews. It is in this sense that I advocate an apology and some official amending of Judaism (Is that even possible?) as the Jews demanded of the Pope at Vatican II in 1965.

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15 thoughts on “Time To Apologize For The Deicide?”

  1. I doesn’t make sense to me yet. Equating what amounted pretty much to a sectarian dispute among 1st century Jews to a continued persecution of Jews on the part of the Roman Church until fairly recent times seems to me like a bit of a stretch. And for the record, Jews lost any interest in persecuting Christians once these started preaching among Gentiles. They give a damn if stupid goyim follow the teachings of a heretic Jew, as long as they themselves are left alone. And anyway, modern Judaism hardly centers around condemnation of Jesus, it’s just Christian, especially Roman and Greek, zealousy which makes this an issue and an excuse to persecute those damned deicide Jews.
    As for Replacement Theology (aka Supersessionism), I don’t see how it would work as an argument for driving Jews into “repenting for deicide”. At best, they won’t care; at worst they will get really pissed off since you’re more or less insinuating their religion is worthless and doesn’t have place in this world. And seeing Rabbinical Judaism as a mere throwback is not an accurate description of it. Rabbinical Judaism is radically distinct from Second Temple Judaism, and stems from the same doctrinal school that informed the teachings of Jesus, namely the House of Hillel. It just followed a slightly more traditionalist path, and in any case the most radical departures of Christianity from Mosaic Law (namely, the dropping of circumcision and dietary laws) were actually introduced a long time after the death of Jesus, when it was clear the Nazarene sect had failed to make much of an impression among Jews, leading to its focusing on converting Gentiles instead.
    For the purpose of fairness, I got to say that i don’t approve of Jews boasting to have killed Jesus with the sole purpose of pissing off Christians. It’s kind of moronic, and maybe you end pissing off Muslims as well, since you are boasting to have killed a prophet, aside from explicitly contradicting the Quran. Not a good idea.

  2. … Jews lost any interest in persecuting Christians once these started preaching among Gentiles. They give a damn if stupid goyim follow the teachings of a heretic Jew, …
    heg (aka hoff2 when not logged out): Just another lying jew. The jew mafia is persecuting non-jews wholesale. Ernst Zundel, seven years in the jews Gulag. Horst Maler, 12 twelve years in the jews Gulag. David Irving, how many years in the jews Gulag l don’t know. German Rudolf, 2,5 years in the jews Gulag. This year 18.ooo germans is either in the jews Gulag and or fined by the jews Kangaroo courts in Germany.
    The true oppressor of the non-jews are the jews!!!
    ——-
    This little book is mandatory reding, even to those who think they know about the criminal zionist jews. The Hidden history of Zionism – book online in full text.
    http://jewise.wordpress.com/the-hidden-history-of-zionism-ralph-schoenman/

  3. Never mind if l’m right, it’s creative thinking. Who – except heg – would call Jesus a jewish false flag op ?D)

  4. yes, I thought that was quite good – ” Jesus, a jewish false flag op ” LOL. But not quite accurate, I feel. Of course there’s some doubt if there’s any historical truth in the Jesus stories – they were written by Greeks a hundred years later – but they’re good stories, and not a bad model for a civilisation at all. Kurt Vonnegut had an alien in one of his novels say ” I love your Jesus stories, but there’s one big fault in them – he knew all along that he was the son of the most powerful person in the universe.
    I’ve never felt that the bible story accused the jews of killing the son of God. I always took the point to be that Jesus came to save mankind, offering only peace and love, and MANKIND killed him, but this was expected and necessary for the consummation of his role. The theology doesn’t entirely make sense, but then it never does or could do, but the moral message is a good one, one that probably eased the strain of the last 2000 unscientific years. This symbol at the heart of Western culture – a man who hung out with beggars and prostitutes and died the death of the lowest of the low but turned out to be the noblest of us all – is not something to throw away lightly. There’s room for that in our vision; though we must build our future using logic and reason on solid evidence, a world without compassion isn’t worth the candle.
    The jews seriously stepped over the mark with their whining about Mel Gibson’s ‘the Passion’. Who do they think they are? That film was just a literal picture of what the bible describes (apart from his ‘devil’ figure, which was a bit of artistic licence). As Robert says, they’re seriously demanding that we censor the Bible because they don’t like it. Worse still, you’ll find plenty of pseudo-lefties who agree with them. I just looked at something from New Internationalist magazine – a free download special you get if you subscribe called ‘ a History of almost Everything’. There was a section (of course) on ‘antisemitism: the Oldest Hatred’, which was straight out of the ziocon handbook – the whole sad history of how the poor old jews had been blamed for killing Jesus from the founding of the Christian Church up to Mel Gibson’s film. My little resume doesn’t do it justice. Read it and puke. Pathetic. Testicles are wasted on people like these.

    1. Yeah, one thing those Trots over at Lenin’s Tomb hated about me from Day One was the fact that I was a Christian. They *really really really really* hate Christians over there! I mean THEY REALLY HATE THEM!
      There were all these Trot Jews who hung out there and the day I showed up, some of them did all these Net searches on me and reported back to Commissar Seymour that I was an evil anti-Semite. Then they found out I was a Christian. According to Trot assholes, ALL Christians are automatically evil anti-Semitic Nazis!
      That Trot crap is ridiculous. It seems like the whole Trotskidiot movement is run by Jews or shot through with ridiculous philosemitism or something. It’s way too Jewish. There’s no reason for that.

  5. Hey, the way i see it, the Romans killed Jesus, while a certain segment of Jewish society with political differences to his teachings.. helped.
    Alot of Jews supported him..even tried to fight for him till he told them to chill in the garden.
    .Robert wrot:
    [i]”This leads us to Replacement Theology. I’m a follower of this. The Jews have been replaced by the Christians. Judaism has been replaced by Christianity.”[/i]
    Then does it follow that Christianity has been replaced by Islam? 😉
    [i]”But then, it’s just typical Jewish hypocrisy du jour. Hypocrisy goes with Jews like lox goes with cream cheese. Jewish hypocrisy is related to Jewish hyperethnocentrism in that all nationalists are hypocrites.[/i]
    I’m glad you qualified that with “nationalists” but i’m not convinced that their lack of ethics has much to do with Jewish theology. Theology can serve as a basis for red herring netting thru deliberate mis-interpretation..like in any religion.
    I think it’s political.

    1. Well, we Christians do not believe that Muhammad was a messenger of God, and we do not believe in the Koran. If you are being really generous, you can call Mohammad the prophet of the Arabs, but I am not sure I want to do that.
      My position is derived from a Hindu who follows Jesus. He says that these guys like Jesus are “floating down from the spiritual world all the time.” We either listen to them or we don’t. There were many before Jesus, there were many after, and there will be more in the future. But I’m no fan of Mohammad.
      If you read the NT, Jesus is quite clear that the OT is old news and it’s been “passed over” and replaced, so to speak. The new religion is Christianity. The old religion was Judaism. Sure, they are just leaves on the vine, but it’s standard Christianity that Judaism has been replaced by Christianity. There’s nothing radical about Replacement Theology. Sure, the Jews hate it, but so what? Of course they will.
      If we understand the behavior of tribes and ultranationalists, we understand a lot of the behavior of the Jews. The Jews are just an extremely tribal human tribe. There are plenty of other tribes out there who act similarly. Tribalism and nationalism is always totally hypocritical, dishonest and irrational. That’s it’s nature.
      I’m no fan of Judaism. Study up on it sometime. Not impressive.
      Whether folks called Romans or folks called Jews killed Jesus is beside the point. The damned Jews, in their Jewish religion and Jewish holy books, take credit for it for fuck’s sake, say he deserved it, and crow about it! Screw that! If they want to have those theological teachings, no problem, but then they need to shut up when Christians bitch about it. The Jews made the Catholics apologize at Vatican 2.
      Why don’t the Jews excise that crap out of their theology and apologize for having it in there. The Orthodox never will, but why doesn’t Reform Judaism. Would it not lessen anti-Semitism? If so, it’s good, right?

  6. Sorry to state the obvious, but Christianity has now been ‘replaced’ by Historical Materialism – not as a faith ( because faith has been replaced by evidence), but as a world-view. There is still a place for faith though, in the basic assumption that it’s worth investing in other people (compassion), co-operating rather than competing. So there is still a place for the old teachings and moral messages that have stood the test of time – I think the old Testament is way past its sell-by date though.

    1. Who believes in this? In the US, only 15% of the population are atheist. If you’re an atheist, you’re basically an outcast. Atheism is a loser, whether it’s true or not. Anyway, I was more or less an atheist for many years, and it’s an extremely dissatisfying POV. We have to support the beliefs of the people. In Latin America, most of the revolutionaries are Catholics, even the Maoists. Atheism doesn’t appeal to the masses. The masses have their religion and preaching atheism to them just alienates them.

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