Berber Genes in Europeans

Repost from the old site. Interesting stuff about Berber % in modern Europeans and speculations about the Berbers being the remains of some of the most ancient proto-Caucasians. In other words, if you are White, the Berbers are like your most ancient grandparents.
It seems reasonable that Southern Europeans especially would have a considerable amount of Berber genes in them. This has been disputed by certain Southern European White racist bloggers like Dienekes Pontikos and Racial Reality. These bloggers are vociferously opposed to the notion that Southern Europeans are anything but pretty near pure White.
For instance, here Dienekes states gives Berber percentages in Europeans as follows:

Nation          Berber %
Spain           1%
Italy           1.75%
France          2%

I am going to disagree with this assessment, though I admit I am not an expert on the subject. Looking at this journal article (table here). we come up with something a lot different. From Cruciani et al 2004:

Ethnic Group                Berber %
Spain (Cantabrian Pasiegos) 30%
Spain (Cantabria)           17%
Southern Portugal           12.2%
Northern Portugal            4%
Spain (Basques)              3.6%
France                       3.5%
Spain (Asturias)             2.2%
Southern Spain               1.6%
Northern Italy               1.5%
Central Italy                1.2%
Italy (Sicily)                .7%
Sardinia                      .5%

The Berber genes seem to have come to Europe for the most part in the past 3,000 yrs. Cantabria is an interesting place. The Cantabrians, in particular the Pasiegos, are said to be quite distinct genetically, almost like the Basques. No one really knows what this is all about.
During the Moorish invasion, they conquered all the way up to the southern mountains of Cantabria, a province in the far north of Spain on the coast next to the Basque region. Perhaps this is where the Moorish (Berber) genes came in.
Looking at the figures above, most Berber genes appear to have gone into Iberia in tandem with the Moorish conquest. Strangely, they are concentrated in the North of Spain. This doesn’t make much sense to me.
The Cantabrian language is still spoken here. Some say it is a dialect of the Asturian language, and others say it is a full language altogether. It looks pretty strange to me (samples at the link). It is said to be related to the Leonese language and also has influence straight up from Common Latin. Cantabrian has no official status, while Asturian has official status in Asturias.
Related languages are Leonese, spoken in Leon and Castile, and Extremaduran, spoken in Spain on the Portuguese border in Extremadura. Extremaduran is endangered, has no official status, and but has 500,000 speakers, including monolinguals (!).
Leonese has only 50,000 speakers, is considered very endangered, but does have special status in Castile and Leon. It’s often treated as a dialect of Asturian, but I think it is a separate language.
A related language is Mirandese, spoken in Portugal. This language looks a lot like Portuguese. It has only 15,000 speakers, but it seems to be recovering. It is spoken in Miranda do Douro state, and this is another name for the language. This blog is written entirely in Mirandese. As you can see, it looks a lot like Portuguese. Mirandese is said to be very close to Leonese.
Asturian has 550,000 speakers, but is considered endangered.
About the Berbers, I consider them to be one of the most ancient, if not the most ancient, Caucasian groups in existence. Berbers go back at least 20,000 years, and possibly up to 50,000 years, in North Africa. Much of the Berber group may have come from the Middle East in the past 10,000 years. There is a huge split between Berbers and Sub-Saharan Africans.
The Mozabites, the Tuaregs and the Chenini-Douiret are quite different from the rest of the Berbers. Why? Probably genetic drift.

Mozabites, possibly some of the most ancient Caucasians on Earth, with a genetic line going back up to 50,000 years. Though White nationalists probably freak out if you say these people are White, they are most definitely Caucasians. Look closely at the features of the second man on the right – he could be a Greek. The fellow in the right forefront also looks Caucasian – he looks somewhat East Indian.
The two men standing at the top could be East Indians or some strange Mediterranean types. Given that East Indians are also one of the most ancient Caucasian groups on Earth, it figures that these Berbers resemble Indians. Both groups came out of the Middle East – the Berbers probably 42,000 years ago, and the East Indians about 17,000 years ago.

There are few genetic differences between Berbers and North African Arabs, which means that North African Arabs are simply Arabized Berbers. There are lots of great photos of Berbers at this link.
The origin of the Berbers is nevertheless quite obscure. This article suggests that both Berbers and Europeans came out of the Levant about 40-45,000 years ago. Obviously, prior to that, they came out of Africa, but I have my own ideas about that. A date of 40-45,000 years is about right for the genesis of the Caucasian race. The homeland of the Caucasians is often said to be located in the Caucasus itself.
This line rose in Southwest Asia (the Caucasus) and then moved to Africa along the Mediterranean, not via Somalia – Yemen as the Out of Africans went. They moved first into the Levant, and from there went to Europe and to North Africa, both at the same time. This line went to the Cro-Magnon as well as the Berber, and both came out of the Levant about 40-45,000 years ago.

Another very interesting looking Mozabite fellow. There are some Mediterranean types who look something like this, but I have a hard time pinning this phenotype down. Clearly, they are Caucasians, but other than that, they look pretty sui generis. A recent genetics study, though poorly done, seemed to show the Mozabites as one of the most ancient ethnic groups on Earth and a source population for many other groups outside of Africa.
The Uighurs in Central Asia were also a source population for many diverse groups all over the place. The Uighurs may be the remains of ancient Caucasian-Asian hybrids that go back up to 40,000 years.
The first Caucasians were probably a mixture of 1/2 Africans (possibly Maasai and Tutsi types from Central Africa) mixed with ancient proto-Asians from China (who may have resembled the Ainu). From this strange mixture arose the original Caucasians, probably in the Caucasus and southern Russia, but maybe also in Iran. I hope to go into greater detail in a future post.

There is good evidence that the first Caucasians, including the Cro-Magnons, looked a lot like Black Africans, in particular the Caucasoid-appearing Africans such as the Maasai and the Tutsi. Cro-Magnon skeletons look like the Masai more than any other modern skeleton. Cro-Magnon skulls are more likely to be confused with Negroid skulls than any other.


Cruciani F, La Fratta R, Santolamazza P, Sellitto D, Pascone R, Moral P, Watson E, Guida V, Colomb EB, Zaharova B, Lavinha J, Vona G, Aman R, Cali F, Akar N, Richards M, Torroni A, Novelletto A, Scozzari R. 2004. Phylogeographic Analysis Of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within And Out Of Africa. American Journal of Human Genetics 74:1014-1022

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31 thoughts on “Berber Genes in Europeans”

  1. Sami have Berber genes from the first Sapien encroachment into Europe. At the height of the last Ice Age, the European population was depleted and the Sami stayed behind. The second Sapien exodus into Europe came from southern Russia / Iran, as well as North Africa.

      1. You both are clearly retarded and I suspect Lindsay also has ADD as he goes from one topic, Berbers, to various dialects/languages in Spain. It’s almost as if he forgot what he was writing about and then suddenly remembered.

      2. Dr. Robert Lindsay, it must be said that Berbers are not Arabs such as Moors, Tunisians & Algerians are not Arabs but Berbers though some mixed with Arabs-lived in Spain from 1981 to 1984 when I was 11 to 14 but didn’t learn this until my Oct. 10 to 16 trip to Spain & Portugal. Spain has had Visigoths (Germanic), Gauls, Celtics (Galicia) & Moors. Spaniards often like to think of themselves as having no Moorish DNA. They did find that 11% of Spaniards have Moorish DNA especially in Andalucia. 1/6 words in Castellano is Arabic-words such as Alcanzar, alcachofa & alfombra are Arab. Hope to make a second trip to Spain in my adulthood. Finally while there are Spaniards who look Berber, there are also Spaniards who are blonde.

  2. I am convinced that Pasiegos from Cantabria are
    Almohades ( berber ) that made their living as a group in a few valleys until now. A nearby town in north Burgos (Medina de Pomar) an its origins can
    give some light to this question.

  3. What a load of crap. Go study the Haplotype groups and youwill see that North-African have African (negro) haplotypes. You should be ashamed for spreading lies (and probably be fined).

  4. When one studies the Arab slave trade in the Mediterranean region and how entire coastal communities were destroyed by it…which is why the Spanish fought so hard to drive it out of Spain and Northern Africa, I would be surprised that the second data is correct.
    I also find it interesting that a language related to Asturian (an IndoEuropean language) could be mistaken for Berber (a nonIndoEuropean language)

  5. Moussa must be Negro, (I don’t mean to offend anyone BTW). therefore, he tries to attribute North Africans to Africa, I’m from Germany and during my trip to north Africa an particularly Morocco where we stopped by a village in northern morocco and to my surprise the majority of kids who were playing by the side of the roads were Blond with blue eyes,and women working in the fields with light color eyes and red face because of the sun also I witnessed some men reddish hair and green eyes,I noticed that they as blonder and whiter as northern Europeans even whiter then the Spanish, Italians and the Greeks. and I definitely came across a lot of Black people and Arab looking people. and when I returned home I did some research and I found out that the Arabs who went to north Africa are the descendants of the invaders from middle east and the black north Africans are slaves brought by Moroccans kings during the ruling of the Arab dynasties in order to serve in the army or as labors. and these people or AKA Berbers are the real North Africans and who knows they might be the descendants of our first ancestors.

    1. One of the things to remember is that when Belisarius destroyed the Vandals in North Africa, he left behind the Vandal women. the entire coast of N. Africa before the rise of Islam was Christian and Roman. The area was quite prosperous and well traveled.

      1. To Beverley Davis,
        The Romans were mostly in the coast and had wars with the Amazigh people for centuries.Romans always were defeated against the Kabyles Amazigh and you can find that in their books.The Donatist Amazigh were Christians way befor the christinsation of Europe,but not all Amazigh were Christians.The third pope was amazigh,and so many well known church people like St-Augustus,Arius,Tertulien..etc
        And even some Roman emperor were Amazigh like Septiums Severus.

        1. I think there’s confusion here. As an Amazigh woman myself, I’d like to shed light upon this subject. The Kabyles of Algeria are one of the many Amazigh group, that have (since ever) inhabited the country. However, they are the smallest Amazigh group found in Algeria, the Chaouis being the biggest in the country, then come the Touaregs & the Mzab, then the Chenouis, and then come the Kabyles.
          Kabyles haven’t fought against Romans, it is the Chaouis that did, St Augustin was Chaoui from what’s now known as Soug Ahras. the Donatists were Chaouis, Septiums Severus ect were Chaouis.
          However, there’s something that should be kept into consideration, the terms Kabyles, Chaouis, ect are recent, they do not define a group’s tribe, these terms were given by invadors over the decades. Kabyle in arabic means tribe, Chaouis in arabic means shepherds, ect… While between us Imazighen, we actually identify ourselves via our tribes, which is more proper. Not all Imazighen have kept this tribal ideology, this is practically non existent among the Kabyles, while the Chaoui society is extremely tribal-led. Also, the majority of Imazighen in the whole of North Africa are from the Zenata, while the Kabyles are Kutama.
          Check on the Aures-Nememcha zone & the Kabilia region, & know that North Africans are or Imazighen, or Imazighen mixed with Africans, there’s isn’t any Arabs in the region, knowing that only Islam-led leaders were of Arab origin, with armies from the said regions = logically speaking you can’t fight a people, with a foreign people. Arabs had little knowledge about the world, in general so they used non-Arabs.
          Hope these explanations help.

      2. Vandals didn’t have women and they were defeated in two war against the Amazigh and they stayed by the coast until they get kicked out.

        1. This reply is for Amazigh. Where on Earth do you get the Kabyles are a minority amongst Algerian Berbers? It’s the opposite, we are the majority. And why do Chaouis always try to discredit Kabyles, saying we have no past, our ancestors never participated in any wars? Judging from what Kabyles and Chaouis are today, I would say the opposite as today’s Chaoui’s are submissive.
          You guys don’t even fight for your identity, and everything you have today is because of Kabyles’ sacrifices. If you are descendants of warriors, then why aren’t you fighting today? Why do you accept the status quo? When the French invaded Algeria for example, the Kabyles were the last ones to fall.
          You said yourself that the names Kabyles and Chaouis are recent, and I agree, but how can you then say that the glory of the Amazigh peoples is all thanks to Chaouis? Today’s Kabyles are the hope of all Berbers no matter the country they live in. Nobody fights or make sacrifices like us. And to those who claim that true Berbers are Black, I ask if have you ever visited the mountains of Kabylia?
          If you have, you would understand that our ancestors have lived there forever. No invader ever reached those mountains, not even Arabs. The only occupants that penetrated our mountains were the French and not one before them.

          1. Hey how are you my Kablye friend? How is your language going? I think in all of those countries there is Arab nationalism that has been terrible for Berbers and their languages. Do you have language rights? How well can you understand other Berber tongues? Can you write in the Tif___ alphabet?
            This Arab nationalism in your la
            nds is crap, my friend. If you are a real man of your people who loves his people and supports them, you really need to oppose this Arab nationalist BS. It’s been a poison dart at the heart of the Berber people.

    2. U knucklehead. Black Africans have been in North Africa forever. The aborigibal people of All Africa and Europe for that matter are Black Africans.
      They have always been there. Anyone else is a migrant or invader and their descendants.
      true Berbers are Black Africans and are indigenous.

  6. recently i went to marrekch and went to Atlas mountain was amazed about the similartis between Kashmiri people and Berbers in morroco.

  7. I am a an Amazigh(Berber)…we prefer to be callled Amazigh or Imazighen(pl),because that is our real name.I am a Kabyle Amazigh from Algiers Algeria and I agree with you on some of the stuff,but not all.Ancient Amazigh were white.Juba II,an Amazigh king,when he helped the discovery of Canary Islands,all the people who visited those islands mentioned that they found tall blond people and very beautifull women who were isloted Amazigh.The Phaorahs drew the Amazigh in their book(Book of gates or death)as white people.If you look to all ancient money of the Amazigh kingdoms you will see pictures of our kings like Massinissa,Syfax,Gaya…etc all look white.If you visit Kabylie in Algeria,you will see some of the blondist people.Myself I didn’t see that not even among the Scandinavians.But most Kabyles have dark hair.
    Modern Amazigh are mixed.The M’zab with Arabs,Touaregs with blacks and Kabyles,Chawiyas are less mixed than the other two,but they are still mixed.I have seen more blonds in Kabylie than in south Italy and south Spain.Riffains(Rif region)in Morocco have more people with blue eyes than in south Spain.I don’t believe race plays big role in the Amazigh people culture.
    I had a good laugh at the white nationalists freaking

  8. I am from Louisiana, where my Spanish ancestors made several settlements of what we call “Canary Island Spanish,” whom I take to be of Berber ethnicity. Recently I learned that I have a “wild” BCHE gene, which has been variously attributed to Persian Jews (Cedar Sinai Hospital, Los Angeles), to at least five ethnic groups in Iran by physicians who appear to have Persian names. It also may be part of the Berber complex of genes. From what I have read recently, major invasions such as the Anglo-Saxon invasion of formerly Roman Britain may make surprising little genetic difference. The same may also explain the lack of genetic impact thus far found in the supposed descendants of Aryan invaders of India.
    I could easily understand how I could have gotten the gene from my father’s family. The most recents literature I have read argues that there were various blowbacks after Afroasian language speakers first left east Africa — and even the suggestion that possibly the earliest farmers who immigrated out of Anatolia into Europe may have spoken a Berber dialect of some sort. Another suggestion that makes sense to me medically is that proto-Amzingh-Berbers at the fringe of the Persian army — in a traditonally herding culture — may have enlisted as mercenaries (hence, free men) in the Persian army and travelled some distance into Asia where they picked up Asiatic genes of some sort — one author stated that some 62 percent of Berber mitochondrial DNA was Asiatic. From their service as mercenaries in the Persian army they would have been in a good position to assume the same role for Phonecian cities and — indeed –that is the role they assumed very successfully when they went over from the Carthegenian to the Roman army, which later served in Palestine and on the Rhine.
    As a Louisianian, I am skeptical of the equation of race and skin color, but then there is an American saying that gentlemen prefer blondes. The traditional depiction of Hamitic peoples is of women who are lighter than men. I think this is most likely from the lack of exposure to the sun of the wives of the ruling class — indeed the difference in shade is pretty much the same as the difference between my forearms and face which are moderately exposed to the intense sun of New Orleans, which is on the same latitude as Cairo. However, perhaps Berber and Eqyptian women were really the first “trophy wives” as the American expression goes for a rich man’s second or third wife in our “serial monography.”
    I would be more curious to learn whether “wild” varieties of BCHE genes — in comparison with the “typical” pseudocholenestrase gene which seems to be drawn from Anglo-American practice based on the British journal The Lancet and The New England Journal of Medecine. But I would be truly interested in finding out whether the BChE wild low variants of BCHE gene, might also be found in the Sami people genome, which is in ways said to be similar to the Berber complex. If it is found in both Sami and Berber — that is to have “wild” varieties of BCHE — then perhaps it represents original Cro-Magnon and the “cultivated” or “typical” variety may represent a later development. The aboriginal drinking habit of the Australian aborigine with a cranial capacity of 1000 cc matches the drinking posture described in the Old Testament of those excluded from the Israelite army at a key battle. The enzyme and related aparatus may have have atrophy or been directed to the creation of bigger brains. This would mean that evolution is still going on in the human brain. This would be a competitive advantage BUT there may also be a cost of this diversion in greater vulnerability to certain pathogens and biochemicals. It has been noted that Berbers have a relatively high susceptibility to leprosy. Furthermore the possible increase in intelligence may be at the price of genetic diseases, where there often seem to be an effort in utero to reduplicate that which has been taken away. Finally, I would question the wisdom that has grown up in Europe in the past 40 or so years of using lysozyme as a “natural” preservative in unpasturized beers, cheeses and so forth. In America it is even marketed not only as “natural” but as both Hallal and Kosher. It is derived from the egg white where it serves the function of metabolizing that white for the yolk. If this is indeed brain building material, it might easiy go wrong. American practice is, as we say in Louisiana French, foutu, (f____up). The slightest spot of blood in an egg can make it unhealthy — un-Kosher and probably un-Hallal. It is said that egg-based vaccines have been banned in some countries because people refuse to let their children be vaccinated. Egg has been a recognized as a problem, but the American Public Health Establishment didn’t even realize that there were BCHE problems THAT MEANT THE EGG COULD BE TOXIC. Instead, it analyzed the problem in terms of testing for “allergy” — and it is indeed true that Succilycholine does raise a histame reaction — but not realizing that the real problem is that bad egg can be truly TOXIC — as some of the European literture — aware of problems because of a common Mediterranean gene pool — and also because of the so-called pied noir in France. PF (Post finally) Among those familiar with Louisiana creole population of mediterranean origin — including but not limited to descendants of (crypto)-Sephardic Jews and others of Mediterranean origin, particularly in families notable for having large heads. PPF (post post finally). One Polish study has found that lyozyme is effective only against gram-positive bacteria and not gram-negative bacteria common intropical or semi-tropical climates, the most common of which have been picked up in some WHO alert for South America. The adverse effects may include hormone or hormonal like chemical activity of lysozyme which may penetrate the blood/brain barrier. Two suicides in the same family of Sehpardic descent and one in a family that may have been ultimately of Sephardic ancestry but may only be traced back as far as central or eastern europe may be owing in part to such accidental intoxication of the brain. However, that being said, I am not a physician nor a biological scientist of any stripe — not even a course at university — just a genealogist.

  9. What do you mean two suicides? A toxic brain caused two people in the same family to commit suicide? Where did this come from? Just what exactly are you trying to say, imply or justify? Setting up some far out excuse to justify offing oneself? No. There will never be a justification. Suicide hurts those left behind. Unforgivable. Take up your cross and carry it. End of story.


  11. About the pasiegos they probably are remains of an early settlemant of people belonging to Tarik and Musa expeditions about year 713. conquering Amaya and Mave:
    This places where probably almost a no-man land between Asturias an the Basque land and Castlla did not even exist at that time.I beleive also other populations a the Maragatos and the Vaqueiros de Alzada have also the same origin , all are along the way of that expaditions…..

  12. lets see..north africa origen is amazigh not berber as the roman used to call them thx for their resistance..the 1st ever people being in touch with them were the phoenician 1200 bc and it increase while Elissa princess of tyre fled from her brother with loyal fellows and built cartrhage or the NEW LAND in the phoenician language..and it was the 1st ever international city joint the native people amazigh and phoenician..after the fall of tyre on the hand of alexander carthage became indepandant and heritage the master of the seas and become that time the language was punic or phoenician influencend with some amazigh word and this language is still alive till now in malta when they call it arbic indeed it is sort of phoencian because arab is too semitic heavy phoenician influence was mostly in north tunis nowaday and the most of cities in north algeria and west maroco..while we have observing influence greece in east lybia were too got mixing with native people..late came the berber roman destroying everything thx for the traidor king massinisia when he betray hanabaal and after ending the carthage era they went after massinia himself when he show legend resistance and the people went away in the mountain and roman never could control them thats why called them berbere..lets talk right now about the amaizgh people..they were white they got affected by greece roman vandale and phoenician and usually these people one way or another way were white..but with tuareq they mix with the people of their environment the black and the black gene is heavy thats why with thousand years their skin became dark for the mozabites and sanhaja i believe might came from south yemen where it was the great toubaa kingdome and afther its fall bit by bit reached north africa by bab almandab straight ethiopia great sahara till there..
    i wana say something white people trend to keep their race one o another way thats why we can notice that in rif and atlas med in maroco and kabyles and chawi in algeria are still big % of them are white..even they convert till islam even they adopt this religion and defend it but never mean to mix easily with arab bani hila and bani salim as sanhaja and zenata did..because the 1st arab came in 7 century ac were few and being sucking and melting the contrary of bani hilal and salim when till now the algerian amazigh especially hate them and never forgive nor forget what their acestors did one in their ancestors..

  13. This is flipped the wrong way. The berbers were once apart of the Sami peoples, some 9 000 yrs ago, they split and come to north africa passing by many lands on the way frm southern europe to asia minor last egypt and into north africa, now other southern europeans are also and have inhabited north africa for over 30 000 yrs as well. but the berbers split in western europe from there people the SAMI and migrate south, while the other SAMI’s continue there migration north following the reindeer. europeans dont come from berbers, berbers come from europeans. get it straight bud.

  14. If the Sami and Berbers are related, I am wondering how many people in Finland and Scandinavia would show Berber genes in a DNA test. Has such a study been done by anyone?

  15. How can you ignore I2a haplogroup in European history? Autochthonous to Europe, pre Berber and Indo-Aryan invasions.
    For example, research of Harald Haarman, Marija Gimbutas concerning Vinča culture. Wiithout this analysis, ancient European history is incomplete.

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