Repost from the old blog. This is great stuff here – a debate on the Katyn Massacre. I tend to agree with Communist and anti-Zionist Israel Shamir’s assessment at the end, seconded by Joh Domingo and Treanor. The hullabaloo over the Katyn Massacre is, as Shamir suggests, a tempest in a teapot.
6 million Poles died in World War 2, most of them murdered in cold blood, and few thousand Polish officers is the worst crime in the war? Please. Polish nationalists have jumped all over this because it demonstrates the perfidy of the USSR, who imposed Communism on reluctant Poles.
Even Stalin said imposing Communism on Poles was like putting a saddle on a cow. Part of the reason for the Poles’ reluctance to embrace Communism is their intense Catholicism. Far Rightwingers love Katyn because it shows that the true evil force in World War 2 was the Soviets, not the Nazis. This line of thinking is strongly tied in with anti-Semitism and pro-Nazism and appears in many different forms.
Hitler was only trying to save the West from Communism. Jews took over in the USSR, killed some people, and then this set Hitler on some maniacal murder spree because his sensitive heart was so troubled by the murderous Jewish Bolsheviks.
The USSR was getting ready to attack Germany and Germany pre-emptively attacked just in the nick of time. Anti-Communism, anti-Semitism and pro-Germanism all wrap together here like vines of ivy and picking them apart is no easy task. Part and parcel of this nonsense is the notion of the Holodomor, literally a “deliberate genocide” which was nothing of the sort.
1.5 million died in a famine that was mostly due to natural causes and partly due to the chaos of too-rapid collectivization, and partly to the kulaks’ destruction of 50% of the livestock in the USSR and much of the nation’s grain crop through either refusal to plant or burning of fields.
Kulaks were not innocent, most had formed armed gangs that killed members of collective farms, raped peasant women and committed mass sabotage. The Ukrainian famine occurred in the midst of a counterinsurgency. During that year, there was famine and there were famine deaths all over the USSR, even in big cities like Moscow. It was just a lot worse in the Ukraine.
The famine was jumped on by Nazi William S. Hearst in league with Adolf Hitler and other Nazis. Pro-fascist Alexander Solzhenitsyn played his part. The figures were constantly revised upwards to 6-8 million dead, when the true figure is 1.5 million.
There is a reason for this. Ukrainian nationalists were overwhelmingly pro-Nazi and many still are. The whole idea is to make the “Holodomor’ a higher figure than the Jewish Holocaust, for nefarious purposes. For more on the Holodomor, see my previous post.
I wish the Hollywood Jews were as pro-Communist as they are always said to be, but I doubt if they are. I used to hang out in Hollywood for years on end, and I met some of these people. They aren’t Communists at all – they are just bourgeois liberals for the most part.
The people who say that “Hollywood Jews” (coded as Commie fellow travelers) cover up the crimes of Communism because “Communists were Jewish”, is, frankly, a Nazi lie. The Killing Fields was a big Hollywood hit. Were the Chinese Maoists Jews too? How about the North Koreans?
Jan Thomasz Gross’ book about Polish anti-Semitism is right on. Many Poles are anti-Semites; it’s just a fact. And large numbers of them gladly helped the Nazis to point out the Jews in their midst; on this one issue, occupiers and occupied often shared one hatred.
But many rescued Jews during the war and the General Government tried to save Jews and was one of the first to blow the whistle on the Nazi project for the Jews. Like most things, the relationship between Poles and Jews is complicated. Polish nationalism is objectively anti-Semitic and probably has been for some time. Jews have a right to be wary about it. For more on this subject, see my previous post here.
I am dubious about whether anyone is trying to stir hatred between Russians and Poles in order to put the NATO missiles in Poland. Russia is perfectly correct to be indignant about these missiles on its front door. How’s about if Russia sticks missiles in Mexico? Poles already don’t like Russians too much due to Communism.
Cold Warriors have jumped all over Katyn as evidence of the evils of Communism. Why Stalin would order 4000 totally innocent Polish officers to be murdered for no apparent reason was always beyond me. Now we find out that the killers were Germans and Ukrainians.
Ukrainian and Polish nationalisms, two vicious and insane ideologies, had been dueling during this period, with persecution, bigotry, ethnic cleansings and killings all around. In part it was a conflict between Catholics and the Orthodox, but Shamir wisely points out the class angle, always neglected in “class does not exist” America.
That the Nuremberg Trials found that the Nazis committed the Katyn Massacre is now used by anti-Semites as more evidence of the evil project of the Jewish-controlled Nuremberg Trials to hang wonderful Nazi humanists and at the same time let the Jews’ genocidal Bolshevik Soviet buddies off the hook.
The Nuremberg decision was a good one at the time. Whether new research has proved them wrong is not known. Exhumations show that some of the Polish officers killed at Katyn were killed with German weapons. Those sneaky Commies must have stolen German guns to blame the nice Nazi pacifists!
It also appears that most of the people shot at Katyn had taken up arms against the Soviets who had moved into Eastern Poland. The Soviets were facing a very nasty insurgency there by Polish nationalists.
There is quite a bit of Jewish-conspiracy mongering in the text below. Although Jewish conspiracies, like all sorts of other ethnic conspiracies, obviously exist, I don’t see much to indicate that Soviet Jews were behind the Katyn shootings or that Hollywood Jews are trying anti-Russian anymore than anyone else and trying to stir up Poland against Russia.
By World War 2, the Jewish era of the NKVD was through – the heyday was 1936-1938. Besides, I am sick and tired of debating anti-Semitic “Bolshevik Jews” talk.
Ferreting through the genealogies of Soviet leaders for drops of Jewish blood here and there smacks of anti-Semitism and seems to be a wrong-headed enterprise, unless one can prove that 1/4 Jewish blood somehow anoints one into the Tribe, I say let it rest. Lots of Jews don’t even like converts, I can imagine what they think of 1/4 Jews.
Hollywood Jews are leftwing pacifists, anti-imperialists and soft Zionists. They are hardly agents of Tel Aviv or the neocons – if anything, they are their opponents.
Joachim Martillo adds his comments to start off:
I tend to agree in terms of relations among nations and particularly in cases where the truth is extremely hard to determine or history is used to create hostility instead of understanding, but comprehending how the Katyn Massacre has been used historically from Nuremberg until today is worthwhile if only because it is still being used politically — Joachim.
Our British reader, Martin Webster (once a prominent far-right leader) wrote about the Katyn film:
Polish film about Katyn Massacre.
The above is the link to a review about a new Polish film which a Polish friend tells me deals with the massacre by the Soviet Union of the Polish officer corps — a crime which for years was blamed on the Germans.
It seems that this film is so good it is up for some kind of a film industry prize, even an Oscar.
I doubt if any such film will be granted high accolades. The people who run the movie business may not be too keen on allowing a prize to go to a film which places the blame for a notorious war crime on the Communists rather than the Nazis!
And as it happens, the Zionists have just commenced a propaganda initiative in Poland designed to make the Poles feel co-responsible with the German Nazis for “the Holocaust”.
Recently Jan Thomasz Gross, a Polish Jew who left Poland in 1968 to become a U.S. citizen and a history professor at Princeton University, has returned to the land of his birth to promote his latest book Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz.
His technique for securing publicity for his book has been to stage provocative public meetings in Polish cities at which he accuses the Polish people in general and the Polish Catholic Church in particular, of responsibility for massacres of Jews during and after the German occupation.
These meetings caused an uproar for, as Time magazine of 23rd January 2008 reported:
“……Poland, which lost about 6 million of its citizens in the war — half of them Jewish — prides itself on being the only country in Nazi-occupied Europe that did not have a collaborator government.
This kind of vilification of the Polish people by Zionist propagandists has been part of Israeli school curriculum for decades past and it has clearly inculcated among Israelis a hatred for Poland and its people.
Shamir replied to Martin:
This is your mistake: “The people who run the movie business may not be too keen on allowing a prize to go to a film which places the blame for a notorious war crime on the Communists rather than the Nazis!” And this is an archetypal error of the Right.
Your “The people who run the movie business” are Jews, and associated with them other forces. You think that for Jews, Nazis are forever the most evil force, while Commies are akin spirit.
Jews are not such idealists as you think. “The people who run the movie business” are first of all American Jews, and they are fully siding with the US, so they want to eliminate every independent force and cause everybody, all mankind, to submit to the will of the US, and by proxy to their will.
Russia is the real enemy for them, as well China or Iran, Cuba and Venezuela, but they are first of all enemies of Russia, the militarily strongest one. They want to cause more hatred between Russians and Poles in order to implant the US missile stations in Poland and move NATO troops eastwards.
This is important real stuff, while the fight with Nazis is a nice entertainment. Nazis were defeated in 1945, and the modern far right is too weak to matter.
“The people who run the movie business” will give this film an Oscar if it will help to undermine Russia’s independence.
Joachim Martillo proposed to shift the blame for Katyn on the Jews:
Here is the Katyn Massacre Recommendation/Order. Investigating Beria’s background leads to the same sort of confusion that is associated with Lenin’s ethnic heritage shown later to be in part Jewish.
The signers of the massacre order are all reputed to have been members of the Kremlin Jewish Faction. From what I have read practically everyone up and down the chain of command in the killings of Polish leaders and intellectuals was Jewish. It takes a little digging to get the backgrounds, and I have yet to see it published in a popular journal.
It took 90 years for the NY Times to admit that all the killers of the Czar and his family were Jewish. Probably around 2030 the NY Times will publish the complete story of the Katyn Massacres including who conceived the idea and advised Stalin.
Shamir concludes on Katyn:
This is far from clear who and how many were shot and when at Katyn. There is a whole literature of blame-shifting and denial, much of it in Russian, Polish, German.
The Nurnberg Tribunal decided that the massacre was done by Germans, and denial of Nurnberg is illegal in many countries – but you may do as much as you wish, if you aim against the present enemy, the too-independent Russia. Probably you may also blame it on Muslims, or Palestinians – as it was almost done by Dershowitz.
This Katyn Massacre was chosen by our enemy. Otherwise, who would give a damn about a few thousand soldiers and officers’ fate in the war where millions perished? More Poles died at Monte Cassino, not to mention Warsaw. What actually happened in Katyn?
It is perfectly possible that as many as 4,0000 Polish officers were actually executed by the Soviets as enemies: do not forget that Napoleon executed 6,000 POW’s, the whole garrison of Jaffa, after they have surrendered. There was much bad blood between the Red Army and the White Poles: over 100,000 Red Army POW’s were killed or starved to death by the White Poles after 1920.
On the other hand, some of the Poles exhumed in Katyn were undoubtedly killed by German weapons. The place could be a preferred place for mass killings, as the Babi Yar in Kiev was, and it was used by whoever was in power.
As far as I understand, one may consider the background, Eastern Poland/Western Ukraine, a piece of land that was shifted from Austro-Hungarian empire to independent Poland after Versailles and to the Ukraine in 1939.
There was extreme animosity between ruling Poles and peasant Ukrainians; the Ukrainians were harshly treated by their Polish masters, and this animosity caused severe persecution of the ethnic Poles when Polish rule was over.
Whoever ordered the shooting the Polish officers – the Soviets or the Nazis – it was anyway done by the Ukrainians, the pro-Soviet Ukrainians or pro-German Ukrainians, for there was nobody else to do the job. In other words, Katyn fits well into Volyn, the place where tens of thousands of ethnic Poles were massacred by Ukrainian nationalists.
One may compare it with the massacre of whites in Haiti after their colonial rule was over; and many other unpleasant events in human history.
I agree with our Polish friend Marek G, with Treanor and Joh Domingo: it is better to forget some things, using the Greeks’ example: they had a capital punishment cure for those with over-long memories. It is better for Russians and Poles to be good neighbours; but the enemy wants them to fight. Likewise, the enemy wants the Arabs to fight Iranians.
The rest of the discussion appears here.